Coffin Bone growth plate(s)?

[Julie Plaster]

I am trying to verify sources to confirm or deny that the equine coffin bone has a growth plate(s) or not.

If so, closed before birth or at birth?

Why would it be important?

Thanks,
Julie :-)

[tbloomer]

I can't recall which reference I read about it, but to my recollection, yes P3 has a epiphysial plate which closes before birth.

Might drop an email to Allie Hayes and see if she has some examples of prenatal foal limbs.

http://www.horsescience.com/

It would be important if you expected it to be on an anatomy test. ;)

[Richard Mercer]

I don't find any references in my books ( Adams,etc.) but several references to P3 being " soft" until 2-3yrs. of age in online articles. Not specifically to your question but a reference here http://www.cvm.ncsu.edu/vth/ehc-sp/ehic/cbf.html

[Julie Plaster]

I can't recall which reference I read about it, but to my recollection, yes P3 has a epiphysial plate which closes before birth.

Might drop an email to Allie Hayes and see if she has some examples of prenatal foal limbs.

http://www.horsescience.com/

It would be important if you expected it to be on an anatomy test. ;)


Tom,

Thanks, I will email her. Just going to her website makes me want to spend money. :D I recently had the Basic 3-D Model with Magnets in my hands. Very nice.

[Richard Mercer]

Growth of Other Bones
Other bones in the limb, such as the block shaped "cuboidal" bones in the knee and hock, the sesamoid bones at the back of the fetlock, and the proximal phalanx ( P3), also develop and mature by the process of endochondral ossification. However, these bones do not have physes and epiphyses. The cuboidal bones progressively ossify from their centers to their articular surfaces, and P3 ossifies from it's body and from three distinct secondary ossification centers: one at the base of the extensor process and one at each wing ( medial and lateral).

From:
Equine Podiatry
Andrea Floyd, Richard Mansmann
page 206

[Julie Plaster]

Growth of Other Bones
Other bones in the limb, such as the block shaped "cuboidal" bones in the knee and hock, the sesamoid bones at the back of the fetlock, and the proximal phalanx ( P3), also develop and mature by the process of endochondral ossification. However, these bones do not have physes and epiphyses. The cuboidal bones progressively ossify from their centers to their articular surfaces, and P3 ossifies from it's body and from three distinct secondary ossification centers: one at the base of the extensor process and one at each wing ( medial and lateral).

From:
Equine Podiatry
Andrea Floyd, Richard Mansmann
page 206

Thank you :-)

Very interesting! Do they cite anything?

[Donnie Walker]

Proximal coffin bone & proximal cannon close before birth. Distal long and distal short pastern close before birth or up to 1 month or 1 week after birth respectively.

Practical Guide To Lameness in Horses

[irishcas]

I had a limb from a foal that was stillborn, there was no growth plate at P3, but the distal end of P2 and P1 both had growth plates. Navicular bone was TEENY, crumbled in my hands after I dug it back up.

Coffin bone was interesting, I have pix, had a hard time finding a good back drop to capture the distortion in the bone. Not symmetrical at all, it was interesting.

[Derek Poupard]

Hi Kim
Looking at the shape can you confirm this is a hind P3, great pictures and with this insight I wonder why we spend our lives trying to make a foot symmetrical ??? Just a thought

[Julie Plaster]

Hi Kim
Looking at the shape can you confirm this is a hind P3, great pictures and with this insight I wonder why we spend our lives trying to make a foot symmetrical ??? Just a thought

Left hind.

I'd want to get a radiograph of that just for fun.

Great photos Kim! Thank you! :cool:

[irishcas]

Hi Guys:

No idea which limb it was, someone brought them to an event I was at, 4 of us got one limb each, but I never saw the body ;) I saved the capsule but couldn't prevent it from drying out distorted.

I do have the rest of the limb, I'll go find it and photograph it along with the growth plates if you all want to see it.

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Proximal coffin bone & proximal cannon close before birth. Distal long and distal short pastern close before birth or up to 1 month or 1 week after birth respectively.

Practical Guide To Lameness in Horses
I never heard of a proximal nor a distal coffin bone ???
Nor a proximal cannon bone . . . ???
There is only one on each limb

The below is generaly accepted in the Equine and medical world.
The epiphyseal growth plates in the distal end of each major bone in the limb of the horse
Limb Bones - Closure Times
Short Pastern Bone (P2)...........3 mo.
Long Pastern Bone (P1)............6 mo.
Cannon Bone (M3)...................9 mo.
Tibia.....................................8 mo.
Radius...................................24 mo.

[Donnie Walker]

I never heard of a proximal nor a distal coffin bone ???
Nor a proximal cannon bone . . . ???
There is only one on each limb

The below is generaly accepted in the Equine and medical world.
The epiphyseal growth plates in the distal end of each major bone in the limb of the horse
Limb Bones - Closure Times
Short Pastern Bone (P2)...........3 mo.
Long Pastern Bone (P1)............6 mo.
Cannon Bone (M3)...................9 mo.
Tibia.....................................8 mo.
Radius...................................24 mo.

There is a proximal end and a distal end of each bone to which you refer, so I assume the authors took that into consideration when they published their dialogue regarding closure times.

[Rightstep]

"Coffin bone was interesting, I have pix, had a hard time finding a good back drop to capture the distortion in the bone. Not symmetrical at all, it was interesting."

I wonder how many symmetrical coffin bones you have seen?...I have yet to see one.

Jen states

[irishcas]

"Coffin bone was interesting, I have pix, had a hard time finding a good back drop to capture the distortion in the bone. Not symmetrical at all, it was interesting."

I wonder how many symmetrical coffin bones you have seen?...I have yet to see one.

Jen states

Jen:

I put that up as a tickle to the BUA. I was told many moons ago by a variety of professional BUAers that all babies are born with perfect coffin bones and it is humans that mess up feet.

Via stalling, lack of movement, improper diet, blanketing, improper trimming and yada yada yada.

That is where my statement grew from.

Thanks though for the thoughts.

[Rick Burten]

Interesting bone. Thanks Kim. While I have seen many p-3's from foals who died sometime post partum, I've never before seen one from a "pre-born".

Rick

[DeniseMc]

put that up as a tickle to the BUA. I was told many moons ago by a variety of professional BUAers that all babies are born with perfect coffin bones and it is humans that mess up feet.

Ok, I'm game to play Devil's Advocate. One coffin bone from one stillborn. Why was the foal stillborn? Was it too malformed from poor or unbalanced nutrition of the mare? Was it at full term? Was it mal-positioned in the mare? Was the navicular of proportionate size--"teeny" in relation to what? And one other side to the coin: If this foal had lived, who's to say that the asymmetry wasn't "perfect" for this foal? Some BUA's do teach about natural asymmetry (to recognize it and not "correct" it), but it's believed to occur due to forces of weightbearing and locomotion. It would be interesting to see thousands and thousands of coffin bones from neonatal or still born foals, not just one.
Denise Mclain

[calshoer]

I would not call that malformed. I would just call it immature.
As well Dr Bowker got to get a few still born or neonate feet and he found that in those all 4 coffin bones were identical font and hind. and that at a very young age(a couple weeks) they are beginning to show changes in shape ,probably in response to weight bearing. I once got to see 4 fresh bones (at the university) from a still born that were identical . You could not tell left from right nor front from hind.

I also have a scanned page from some book (not referenced, so I am looking for it) in one of my Power Points that I inherited from the previous college farrier science instructor here that says that P3 has a proximal physis that closes before birth. If you look closely at the pre born bone there is indeed a faint line across the dorsal surface a fraction of an inch below the articular surface......perhaps ohat is it?

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Kim
Looking at the shape can you confirm this is a hind P3, great pictures and with this insight I wonder why we spend our lives trying to make a foot symmetrical ??? Just a thought


I'd be very careful not to rely too much on the shape of this particular coffin bone. For one because I have no idea how drying out has influenced its overall shape.


Ronald Aalders

[irishcas]

I'd be very careful not to rely too much on the shape of this particular coffin bone. For one because I have no idea how drying out has influenced its overall shape.


Ronald Aalders

I don't know if I would attribute it's shape to drying out and as you can see if you look closely, the foot was still decomposing. I pulled it out of the ground too soon. It was still moist from the earth.

[DavidinGA]

Patty,Kim, Denise,

I grew up on a breeding farm so I have had the opportunity to see (roughly) several hundred foals born. What we always did was to bring the mare in near time for delivery, watch her till she foaled, give baby initial medical care and turn them back out. They were back in the field within 24 hrs of birth.

Almost every baby I've seen born came out with identical feet ( to the naked eye) and when brought back to the barn at 1 month intervals until weening, their feet would be less and less alike. By the time the foals were ready for weening they would have distinctly different fronts and hinds.

To me that says that it doesn't matter what the coffin bone looks like at birth ( except in cases of extreme deformity) because it's going to be reshaped by use to fit the way it should according to how the foot is used. It is interesting to see a prenatal coffin bone though, it would be even more educational if some one had some coffin bones from say a 1 month old or 3 month old to compare it too. I bet the one month old you'd see differences and the 3 month old you'd be able to tell fronts and hinds.

I hope all that makes sense.
David