Finding Center of Articulation...without x rays.

[DavidinGA]

How do you do it?

How many of you actually take a marker and draw on a hoof?

Do you use Ducketts Dot?

Natural Balance mapping?

Your own home grown method?

I did look around before I started this thread and I didn't find another thread covering this so hopefully it's not to blatant a rehashing of an old topic.

Thanks
David

[DavidinGA]

Since this discussion has so far gone nowhere, I thought I would throw out the source for my train of thought. Realizing that this may be a biased source, I don't see any blatant marketing of their product so I think it may be worth consideration.

That being said, I would appreciate everyone's opinions of this article and the issue of finding the center of articulation.

http://www.eponashoe.com/Documents/Morphology.pdf

Thanks Again
David

[ladyblacksmith]

When you understand anatomy very well; it is easy to know where it is; and to picture it in your mind like a 3D holograph.

[Dances with Hooves]

When I was learning NB I mapped every foot. Then when getting ready for certifications I mapped every foot. After mapping the first 3,000-5,000 feet I found I could for the most part just look at a foot and see the lines without having to draw them.

But if I find I have a question in my mind as to where COA is I pull out my marker.

I tend to map very distorted feet with a marker. I find less distorted feet I mark less often.

[cynthia-jay]

I "eye ball" the animal to acess for balance/conformation

I also watch the animal move,

I pick up each hoof and read it and which hooves need to be addressed and put it all together

this may seem a slow process to some, but it is the method I was taught to use, it works for me

it only takes a glance

and yes, I see the animal in 3-D, and put "hands on " if neccessary in regards to lameness/leg/hoof issues

as always,

c jay

[Jake Whitman]

I like the Widest part of the foot, I try to have 50/50 anterior/postieriorof Coa, I use all of the methods to find it, but the widest -part of the hoof , usually is the widest part of the foot, and COA, IMO.

[Ronald Aalders]

I posted a thread on exactly this a couple of years ago. Here it is: http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535

You're welcome ;)


Ronald Aalders

[DavidinGA]

Ron,

Thanks for the link. I have to agree with the folks on the other thread, that is one great looking foot to be laminitic and a very ingenious shoeing package. Just out of curiosity ( since the other thread is almost 5 yrs old) how is that mare doing?

From reading the over the article I posted to start this thread, it seems that the tip of the live frog would be the best indicator but even that is not always perfect. I know when you get to the point of having handled ten thousand feet you probably don't need an external indicator but I'm sure it would still be nice to have a reasonably reliable way to double check your self. What do you folks think?

David

[Ronald Aalders]

Well, she had two or three more foals, but had a bout of laminitis every now and then too. Never as harsh as before I got to her. So maybe something helped somehow? :cool: She's still alive, but I have not seen her in a while now. She was traded for a reiner...............


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

How many of you actually take a marker and draw on a hoof?
When in doubt, I do. :)
Do you use Ducketts Dot?
Sometimes.
Natural Balance mapping?
Most of the time.
Your own home grown method?
No matter whose protocol(s) you follow, in the end, its always your own home grown method .;)

Rick

[calshoer]

When you understand anatomy very well; it is easy to know where it is; and to picture it in your mind like a 3D holograph. For the novices who lurk here, can you explain in either words or pictures just what it is you see as you look at the foot and apply your anatomy knowledge, in order to find the COA? (something descriptive, or visual such as Ron has done here?

[calshoer]

How do you do it?I use the most recent methods of Natural Balance mapping to find the widest part of the foot, which according to a recent ELPO radiographic study on 100 hooves showed it to be quite accurate.

An interesting note ,I have tried Ron's method when I had photographs of feet of both sole and lateral views and it comes out almost the same place across the foot every time. It seems however that it would be a little harder to see it his way on a live, curved 3D foot with your head on the ground trying to see it. How many of you actually take a marker and draw on a hoof? I Still do occasionally on new client's feet, feet that have significant distortion, and whenever I am teaching.
However after about 13 years of doing NB, I can see it pretty well just looking at the exfoliated foot. Do you use Ducketts DotNo. The 'dot' is too far forward. Duckett's 'bridge' on the other hand , is closer.
Natural Balance mapping?Of course....:D
Your own home grown method?I haven't yet found any mapping as accurate as NB. particularly given I dont have Xrays to measure it all my clients.......

[Ronald Aalders]

When you understand anatomy very well; it is easy to know where it is; and to picture it in your mind like a 3D holograph.


Well, I always thought that I knew my anatomy but I can tell you if you get a chance to check your shoeing using an X ray machine regularly, you'll find you're off more than once. At least I am.

No matter how well educated you are, if you need to be sure you need an X ray machine. Beats each and every mapping theory :D


Ronald Aalders

[DavidinGA]

Ron,

I agree that x rays are the way to go but they are not always an option, that's the reason for the title of the thread. Also, I wanted to say thank you again for all the great information you've added to this thread.


Patty,

I have just one question ( and I don't mean to be smart but I know it'll come across that way but ) wouldn't a ruler be as accurate and easier for finding the widest part of the foot? If not, can you explain why? I know it's obvious from my question but I will admit I'm not well versed in the NB system although I am interested in it.

Also, I wanted to say thanks for pointing out that Duckett's dot is not the item actually used to find COA, I did know that but I posted it that way because I hear a lot more people refer to that system as using Duckett's Dot than I hear them saying Duckett's Bridge. So I was just trying to use the more recognizable "common term" for the system.

Thanks Again
David

[ladyblacksmith]

Well, I always thought that I knew my anatomy but I can tell you if you get a chance to check your shoeing using an X ray machine regularly, you'll find you're off more than once. At least I am.

No matter how well educated you are, if you need to be sure you need an X ray machine. Beats each and every mapping theory :D


Ronald Aalders

It also depends on WHO is holding the X-ray machine; and what vet is reading the x-rays......in as much.

[cynthia-jay]

I have seen Vets "unsure" to tell if a hoof is club or not with an X-ray

I would definately recomend an X-ray for something Ronald has presented as an example, and other instances that require it

l@@k ahead if you come across that, for compensation in the other 3

as for general "overall balance" I sight them in as stated/pay attention to the rear of the horse as well

working on charity cases you get alot braver than with a clients horse

as times goes on, you develop your eye, as you pick up each hoof, you should be able to also determine soundness/lameness issues/

warning:
if you tip one over...you went to far :D

have a great day

as always

c jay:)

[calshoer]

Patty,

I have just one question ( and I don't mean to be smart but I know it'll come across that way but ) wouldn't a ruler be as accurate and easier for finding the widest part of the foot? If not, can you explain why? I know it's obvious from my question but I will admit I'm not well versed in the NB system although I am interested in it.A ruler would be pretty good IF the sole has a fairly rounded shape, AND the frog apex was not stretched.However because some feet are less symmetrical, (such as round on the lateral side and very straight in the medial side) or have very straight quarters on both sides, (making it hard to see or measure the widest part of the sole) or may have stretched frogs, we use three methods in NB to determine the WP of the foot. Therefore besides just measuring across the sole, we also find the measurement back from the *trimmed* frog apex at its junction with the sole, AND find the termination of the bars at the sole and then use all three. That way if there is any small discrepancy, then you have "the best two out of three" to guide you, sans Xrays .

[Gary Hill]

OK, now come on! You have got to be kidding ,if you don't think a simple ruler can't measure "The widest part of the hoof"? A first grader can do that looking at it!:eek:

[calshoer]

OK, now come on! You have got to be kidding ,if you don't think a simple ruler can't measure "The widest part of the hoof"? Try reading my post again. :rolleyes:

[calshoer]

Take a ruler and find the widest part of this foot,and therefore the COA ,Gary. :D

[Gary Hill]

Can you blow the picture up? I don't have a ruler that small.:D

[Jake Whitman]

I Agree with Patty, Works every - time!!! Marc Caldwell's work proves it !!

[Jake Whitman]

Gary, come to the Texas Podiatry Conference, This is going to be a once in a life-time chance , Chris Pollitt, Steven O'Grady, Mark Caldwell, Blane Chapman.

[Ronald Aalders]

It also depends on WHO is holding the X-ray machine; and what vet is reading the x-rays......in as much.


Where mechanics are concerned I'll do the reading :D


Ronald Aalders

[Jake Whitman]

Yep, Ron, How many Bad Rads , have you seen over your years, of shoeing??

[Ronald Aalders]

For us, as shoers, quality of the pic never really is a problem. We don't need to judge calcifications, coffin bone edges or whatnot to use a rad for our purposes. As long as we can tell where the COA is, as long as we can determine the position of P3 in the hoofcapsule, we're fine.

No rad however poor it may have been was useless to me. However there are generally good quality X rays that are useless to me. How am I going to determine break over en support lenght when a rad is not taken at direct angles? How about measuring sole depth without a decent horizontal/top of the block marker? What should I do with a rad of a laminitic foot in a cradle? And there are more mistakes made that could easily be prevented and would have made my life so much easier.


Ronald Aalders

[ladyblacksmith]

Where mechanics are concerned I'll do the reading :D


Ronald Aalders

now, now, that's playing vet.

[DavidinGA]

Patty,

If I understand what you posted, the NB principles just give more ways of determining the COA so that you will be more likely to accurately find it than if you only used one method ( such as a ruler). Thanks for the explaination, it was very helpfull.

David

[Ronald Aalders]

now, now, that's playing vet.

I don't care. I'm bigger than most vets anyway :D

By the way personally I never use the widest part of the foot as a reference to find the COA. I found more than once that especially on very distorted (migrated) hoofcapsules, the COA in my measurements were more precise than when determined with the widest part of the foot reference.


Ronald Aalders

[ladyblacksmith]

I don't care. I'm bigger than most vets anyway :D

By the way personally I never use the widest part of the foot as a reference to find the COA. I found more than once that especially on very distorted (migrated) hoofcapsules, the COA in my measurements were more precise than when determined with the widest part of the foot reference.


Ronald Aalders

very truly said. I was just teasing you nicely of course here at horseshoes.
every thing has variables in it, and you don't use the same methods on a disfigured hoof as you do on a nice hunter type foot.

[calshoer]

every thing has variables in it, and you don't use the same methods on a disfigured hoof as you do on a nice hunter type foot.Why would you not use the same method to find the COA on a disfigured foot as a good foot? Particularly considering that the disfigured foot is going to be harder to just "read" , and given that there are certain external anatomical structures that do not seem to lose their relationship with the coffin joint even on a disfigured foot, wouldn't a disfigured foot be the one MOST needing a good anatomical mapping method to find the true COA if you lacked X-rays?

[calshoer]

By the way personally I never use the widest part of the foot as a reference to find the COA. I found more than once that especially on very distorted (migrated) hoofcapsules, the COA in my measurements were more precise than when determined with the widest part of the foot reference.


Ronald AaldersIt is HOW you find the widest part of the foot that my be difficult in distorted feet . Simply trying to see or measure it in the sole is not enough, as shown in my picture I posted. However, using at least three methods to find it ,which we do in NB, has proven (checked radio graphically in many horses) to be very accurate even in migrated, distorted feet. This multiple way of mapping it has proven to work for me personally over the years with the cases in which I was able to get radiographs after the shoeing, and in the most recent completed ELPO research project has also shown it to work. . http://www.e-hoofcare.com/research/wpotf-start.htm

[Ronald Aalders]

every thing has variables in it, and you don't use the same methods on a disfigured hoof as you do on a nice hunter type foot.


Well, actually I do :D


Ronald Aalders

[ladyblacksmith]

Why would you not use the same method to find the COA on a disfigured foot as a good foot? Particularly considering that the disfigured foot is going to be harder to just "read" , and given that there are certain external anatomical structures that do not seem to lose their relationship with the coffin joint even on a disfigured foot, wouldn't a disfigured foot be the one MOST needing a good anatomical mapping method to find the true COA if you lacked X-rays?

Because Dear you have to take inconsideration as conformation; what the horse does; habits ect.

[ladyblacksmith]

Well, actually I do :D


Ronald Aalders

Me too! but I do take into consideration on conformation, what the horse does, habits ect. just like I expained to Patty, dear.

[GiddyapGirl]

Because Dear you have to take inconsideration as conformation; what the horse does; habits ect.

Whhhhhhhhat??? Meadow muffins to that. Mechanically, the COA DOES NOT change due to what the horse does, confirmation, yada, yada, yada. I have to wholeheartedly agree with CalShoer on this one. Careful Linda, especially in the anatomy arena, Patty is at an expert level. Tangling with her on this is like jumping into an arena full of lions thinking you can whoop their butt bare handed. It will only lead to annihalation and embarressment.

If this were true and the horse was jumping one day, doing dressage the next and cross country eventing on the third do you mean to tell me that the COA is going to be in three different places on three different days?????? I'm thinking.........um......NO.:eek:

[KarenStandefer]

How come so many on this thread are not following the rules with regard to signing their names?

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11244

[ladyblacksmith]

Whhhhhhhhat??? Meadow muffins to that. Mechanically, the COA DOES NOT change due to what the horse does, confirmation, yada, yada, yada. I have to wholeheartedly agree with CalShoer on this one. Careful Linda, especially in the anatomy arena, Patty is at an expert level. Tangling with her on this is like jumping into an arena full of lions thinking you can whoop their butt bare handed. It will only lead to annihalation and embarressment.

If this were true and the horse was jumping one day, doing dressage the next and cross country eventing on the third do you mean to tell me that the COA is going to be in three different places on three different days?????? I'm thinking.........um......NO.:eek:

horses are sometimes born with deformaties; just like other animals.
How do you measure the COS on a foal born with half a foot; or when on cellular splicing in utero; and parts of it are in the inside of belly?
Linda Marie

[Cyber Farrier]

Where is your full name at the end of your posts? You want you posts deleted?

Baron

[ladyblacksmith]

Where is your full name at the end of your posts? You want you posts deleted?

Baron

it is Linda Marie.

[KarenStandefer]

horses are sometimes born with deformaties; just like other animals.
How do you measure the COS on a foal born with half a foot; or when on cellular splicing in utero; and parts of it are in the inside of belly?
Linda Marie

That's not really what you were saying, however. You said:

"Because Dear you have to take inconsideration as conformation; what the horse does; habits ect."

So, with regard to your comments, which I quoted above, how would the center of articulation differ with regard to the horse's conformation, what it does and what habits it forms, etc.?

[ladyblacksmith]

That's not really what you were saying, however. You said:

"Because Dear you have to take inconsideration as conformation; what the horse does; habits ect."

So, with regard to your comments, which I quoted above, how would the center of articulation differ with regard to the horse's conformation, what it does and what habits it forms, etc.?

The conformation does come under what if you have a severly clubbed, and and a severly contracted tendon that make this horse walk on the front part of it's coronary band. Where is the true COA? Also in DLSD; where is the true COA in the foot to measure. Also in servere contracter when the frog is totally and fully inclosed and the foot in and under itself into a deformaty rolled totally under itself; how do you measure to the COA?
Or in rare occasions a double foot on one side; which comes from one twin absorbs another?

I saw this one for myself!!!!!
How would you find the COA in a petrified foot; yes a petrified foot that is so deformed and grose?

[KarenStandefer]

"Because Dear you have to take inconsideration as conformation; what the horse does; habits ect."

You still haven't answered my question:

How would the center of articulation differ with regard to the horse's conformation, what it does and what habits it forms, etc.?

[ladyblacksmith]

You still haven't answered my question:

How would the center of articulation differ with regard to the horse's conformation, what it does and what habits it forms, etc.?

I was coming out of left field with a trick answer to an untrick question.

I was being phasious and kidding.

The COA never changes, but thinking outside the box: what about in the cases of deformaties.
Now that would be a good debate.
Especially since I was able to see a true petrified hoof and a
living horse. Where is the COA on a petrified hoof?
You couldn't trim it; because blood would come out immediately, and it was very deformed. you could never balance the foot out? so how do you get a balanced trim on a horse like that; when the rest of the feet are normal. This was a hind foot too.

[Cyber Farrier]

Ummm... Linda, what part of signing your posts, all of them, with a full name is not being understood? Please, it's not that difficult.

Baron

[ladyblacksmith]

Ummm... what part of signing your posts, all of them, with a full name is not being understood? Please, it's not that difficult.

Baron

I do have a 8 year old daughter to consider; and to be partly private.
being a single mom with such a young daughter; you can't be to careful in to days' world. Jaycee Dugard case is one, and I have had a stalker in the past who like my daughter too much!!!! They are still very much in the area.

You know me and have personally met me at the wellshod clinic last fall. also, many here know and have met me personally.
This has never been a problem until Karen S (a woman!)brought it up.

I apologized for all my short comings; but the safety of my daughter comes first and foremost. That is what a responsible parents do.


To everyone else it was a pleasure to learn from all of you, thank-you for being my farrier buddies. So long for now, I will miss you guys, Linda Marie.
Since you Baron might ban me after this:

The shoeing answer to this particular thread is:
That the COA never changes; but it is relative to the conformation of the horse. That is the answer from a very highly respected farrier.

[ladyblacksmith]

Ummm... Linda Muggleworth, what part of signing your posts, all of them, with a full name is not being understood? Please, it's not that difficult.

Baron

I do not appreciate you using my name like that especially since my daughter has been a target of stalking!!!!!! it is why I wanted some privacy.........do you understand!
erase, please..or
if anything happens to my daughter in anyway........ I will use this post in court of law for the endangerment of the child

[Cyber Farrier]

Look, Linda, I met you, I know you're a nice person, and all that other good stuff. That doesn't exempt you from following the same rules everyone else has to follow. If you don't want to follow them, fine, that's your choice. No one is forcing you.

As to your full, real name, please, who do you think you're kidding? Your full real name is already easily found in lots of places on the net, and regardless of what you may think, it's stored for future access forever, in thousands of search engines. Using an alias in one place and not in others doesn't work.

Your participation is always encouraged. But please adhere to the posting rules.

Thanks,
Baron

[daveyireland]

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv310/davidkdd/Image056.jpg
Had a go at it again today, horse with old flexor tendon injury is always slightly lame but owner only hacks at a walk out the road twice a week seemed bit better after shoein but always does. was on my own and he constantly lifts his foot so found using rons method very difficult tried holding off f up and leaning over but that was a disaster :eek: so used widest part of foot can anyone draw lines on it see was it close to where would be with rons method. do you think i have mechanics correct? would appreiate all constutive criticism given.

[cynthia-jay]

this is not Ronald's method, but the way I see it

If he wishes to address your request, that is his choice

sorry if the lines don't do your photo justice," it is left to right"

I think it is a job well done without seeing the old injury

c jay;)

[calshoer]

For goodness sakes Linda, your full name, residence and phone number etc are all over the internet because you made it available when you openly ADVERTISED your services. :rolleyes:So get ovet it . If someone wanted to find where you are physically, they could do it in about 30 seconds (actually it took me 10 seconds...without even using the last name...) off of any number of websites.

I suggest if you are that paraniod that you change your name, move, and start over but stay totally off the internet.

[calshoer]

That said Linda, the COA does not change in regards to deformity or whatever.The COA is ALWAYS the COA. It is the hoof CAPSULE that can be deformed around it, but I have not yet failed to get very close to locating it even with deformed feet, using the mapping methods I have found to work. Certain outer capsule structures just do not easily lose their relationship to the joint ,while other capsule structures do.

Now ....what the horse does for a living,or his conformation, may indeed dictate what you Do WITH your information about where the COA is once you have found it, but that center of articulation will always be the center of articulation.

A horse can lose the whole hoof capsule and he will still have a COA of the coffin joint unless the coffin bone and short pastern bone fell off too. :eek:

AS to discussing in utero ..... I want to see you trim or shoe an in utero fetus.

[Ronald Aalders]

if anything happens to my daughter in anyway........ I will use this post in court of law for the endangerment of the child


I can not believe this. If you actually feel your daughter is in danger, and your not using this as a shameless excuse to make your point, ánd you feel your posting on a public board that as you know in advance has rules for EVERYONE to live by will endanger your child, you should have thought twice. Trying to get both ways, post on this board ánd not follow the clear and obvious rules has backfired already.

If posting here endagers your child (I never realized how dangerous posting here is :D) you are the only one to blame for putting your child in harms way. Now my advise would be to get off this board and stay off and attend to your child.


Ronald Aalders

[Ronald Aalders]

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv310/davidkdd/Image056.jpg
Had a go at it again today, horse with old flexor tendon injury is always slightly lame but owner only hacks at a walk out the road twice a week seemed bit better after shoein but always does. was on my own and he constantly lifts his foot so found using rons method very difficult tried holding off f up and leaning over but that was a disaster :eek: so used widest part of foot can anyone draw lines on it see was it close to where would be with rons method. do you think i have mechanics correct? would appreiate all constutive criticism given.

Looks pretty ok Davey, the pic is not taken straight on though. I remember Patty posting a while back sketches of how to take correct pics for situations like this. Maybe you could post them again and maybe Baron can take care they are easily found on this site. I noticed that a lot of pictures are not taken correctly (while all you need to do is take pics at a straight angle)

I would suggest you take care the roll of the banana is not a really acute one but evenly spread over the entire ground surface of the shoe.


Ronald Aalders

[daveyireland]

Thanks Ron for taking the time to answer me I greatly appreciate it, i'l remember that next time and try have better photos next time must bring a camera in future, using phone is very hard to keep straight or to see what ive taken til blown up on the computer.

[blinddogfarrier]

I do have a 8 year old daughter to consider; and to be partly private.
being a single mom with such a young daughter; you can't be to careful in to days' world. Jaycee Dugard case is one, and I have had a stalker in the past who like my daughter too much!!!! They are still very much in the area.

You know me and have personally met me at the wellshod clinic last fall. also, many here know and have met me personally.
This has never been a problem until Karen S (a woman!)brought it up.

I apologized for all my short comings; but the safety of my daughter comes first and foremost. That is what a responsible parents do.


To everyone else it was a pleasure to learn from all of you, thank-you for being my farrier buddies. So long for now, I will miss you guys, Linda Marie.
Since you Baron might ban me after this:

The shoeing answer to this particular thread is:
That the COA never changes; but it is relative to the conformation of the horse. That is the answer from a very highly respected farrier.


That is just silly, very few of us knew anything about you or your daughter's situation until you went off...by the way Patty was right, took a search engine .02 seconds to get your details...sorry

[Phil Armitage]

You still haven't answered my question:

How would the center of articulation differ with regard to the horse's conformation, what it does and what habits it forms, etc.?

.............because if the full range of articulation is compromised, how can you measure the center? The ball is now in your court. :)

[Phil Armitage]

That said Linda, the COA does not change in regards to deformity or whatever.The COA is ALWAYS the COA. It is the hoof CAPSULE that can be deformed around it, but I have not yet failed to get very close to locating it even with deformed feet, using the mapping methods I have found to work. Certain outer capsule structures just do not easily lose their relationship to the joint ,while other capsule structures do.

Now ....what the horse does for a living,or his conformation, may indeed dictate what you Do WITH your information about where the COA is once you have found it, but that center of articulation will always be the center of articulation.

A horse can lose the whole hoof capsule and he will still have a COA of the coffin joint unless the coffin bone and short pastern bone fell off too. :eek:

AS to discussing in utero ..... I want to see you trim or shoe an in utero fetus.

Patty, Linda already said the same thing. She never said the COA changed. Probably did a poor job getting her point across, but I got it. She is talking about horses with a poor range of motion in the lower joints, loading and impact. Conformation and what the horse does on what footing are important variables for consideration.

Have you never trimmed and shod a horse with no range of motion in the fetlock? What would you do? Please explain to me where the COA is?

[Rick Burten]

It seems to me that regardless of the range of motion, anatomically, the COA remains the same.

For example, using a simple teeter-totter, the 'center of articulation' remains the same regardless of whether or not the teeter-totter goes fully through its movement potential.

Have you never trimmed and shod a horse with no range of motion in the fetlock?
Yes I have. But the COA we are discussing is that of the DIPJ, right?
What would you do?
Trim and/or shoe the hoof to make breakover(in any direction) as easy as possible. I'd do this by locating the anatomical COA and setting my trimming/shoeing accordingly.
Please explain to me where the COA is?
Right where it always is, pathology not withstanding.

Rick

[Phil Armitage]

It seems to me that regardless of the range of motion, anatomically, the COA remains the same.

For example, using a simple teeter-totter, the 'center of articulation' remains the same regardless of whether or not the teeter-totter goes fully through its movement potential.


Yes I have. But the COA we are discussing is that of the DIPJ, right?

Trim and/or shoe the hoof to make breakover(in any direction) as easy as possible. I'd do this by locating the anatomical COA and setting my trimming/shoeing accordingly.

Right where it always is, pathology not withstanding.

Rick

If you are measuring a static point then yes your assumption would be correct, however when the term Center of articulation is used then I assume we are talking about the range of an articulating surface. Articulation implies movement, what are the two stops front and back. So no it is not the same on all horses, looks good on paper but what is the real range of movement and tolerance? :eek::D Keep in mind using the COA as a reference that is thrown out to be used for breakover, shoe placement and where to trim the heels and it is is merely a tool and a good tool I might add. Other variables come into play such sole depth, sinking, rotation, impact and load, medial lateral balance, underrun heels, long toe, thickness of the hoof capsule, condition of the frog, digital cushion, bars, joints, quarter cracks, poor hoof pastern alignment, negative palmer angle ................

Pathology not withstanding, what do you mean? Are you saying most of the horses you get under are 100% sound. I don't think so. Nice talking to you Rick.

[KarenStandefer]

.............because if the full range of articulation is compromised, how can you measure the center? The ball is now in your court. :)

From my viewpoint, you're talking about a restricted range of motion. Still the center of articulation remains the same. It may be restricted, but it's not relocated.

[Ronald Aalders]

I'm not sure why the position of the COA is a debate anyway. What makes it tricky is that P3 does not move around an infinite small spot, but slides over (or rather under :rolleyes:) the distal end of P2.

However the COA is always the same. In a distorted foot, in a flexed or stretched foot, always.


Ronald Aalders

[Rick Burten]

;)If you are measuring a static point then yes your assumption would be correct, however when the term Center of articulation is used then I assume we are talking about the range of an articulating surface.
Now Phil, you know what they say about assuming......;) COA to me refers to an anatomical location which is the same, regardless.
Articulation implies movement, what are the two stops front and back.
The places where articulation ends.
So no it is not the same on all horses,
Sure it is. And there are enough studies out there to support that position.
looks good on paper but what is the real range of movement and tolerance?
Doesn't matter. The COA of any joint remains the same.
Keep in mind using the COA as a reference that is thrown out to be used for breakover, shoe placement and where to trim the heels and it is is merely a tool and a good tool I might add. Other variables come into play such sole depth, sinking, rotation, impact and load, medial lateral balance, underrun heels, long toe, thickness of the hoof capsule, condition of the frog, digital cushion, bars, joints, quarter cracks, poor hoof pastern alignment, negative palmer angle ................
Actually, in the face of any or all those variables the fact remains that the COA[and in some cases, the lack of articulation at its anatomical location] is basically static.
Pathology not withstanding, what do you mean?
That means that regardless(some might use the non-word 'irregardless :o ;) ) of the pathology/pathologies present, the COA of the DIPJ remains the same.
Are you saying most of the horses you get under are 100% sound.
From your mouth to God's ears....(IOW, no)
I don't think so.
As noted, me either.
Nice talking to you Rick.
To you too Phil.

Rick

[Phil Armitage]

I'm not sure why the position of the COA is a debate anyway. What makes it tricky is that P3 does not move around an infinite small spot, but slides over (or rather under :rolleyes:) the distal end of P2.

However the COA is always the same. In a distorted foot, in a flexed or stretched foot, always.


Ronald Aalders

Yes the reference is always the same. Not arguing that point at all and neither was Linda M. Good tool to use on distorted feet, upright, low, long or short. Range of motion, leverage, impact and load that is the tricky part. Your use of banana shoes gets my attention especially horses that have broken back HPA, increasing breakover is not enough and they cannot handle wedging.

[Phil Armitage]

From my viewpoint, you're talking about a restricted range of motion. Still the center of articulation remains the same. It may be restricted, but it's not relocated.

Yes, the reference anatomically does not change, I agree. The restricted range of motion is virtually impossible to determine and in my opinion impossible to say for certain what the center of the range is, even on a sound/healthy horse. Keep in mind the COA is a reference point, what you decide to do with it is up to you.

[DavidinGA]

I'm not sure why the position of the COA is a debate anyway. ...stuff deleted...

Ronald Aalders

Ronald,

When I opened this thread I didn't intend that it should be a debate. I simply wanted to see what methods people used to determine COA for themselves because I had just read the article ( which I posted a link to ) and it pretty much disproved every method it tested except for Duckett's and using the tip of the trimmed frog. The article even said that those weren't 100% reliable but looking at their data points the tip of the trimmed frog seems pretty close to me. I figured there would be about as many ways to find COA as there are farriers but I didn't expect it to be such a hotly debated topic. I will say however, that I am learning from this thread and I appreciate everyone's input.


Thanks
David

[cuttinshoer]

Lets say we have a foot with a broken back axis, the distal end of p-2 is usually lower in the capsule. So if we elevate the foot to restore the hpa with wedges or whatever means and also providing support to p-2. By doing this do we not elevate the distal end of p-2, would that not change the COA measurement on the bottom of the foot. I'm not saying the actual COA changes but would the point on the bottom of the foot change. Geometry tells me it would but I have been wrong before.

The reason I am thinking this is because of this x-ray if the coa is measured and we provide 50\50 relationship the front portion of the 50% is not obtainable. Somebody please explain what I am doing wrong, I am about to pull my hair out.

Justin Decker

11609

[Clint Burrell]

[QUOTE=cuttinshoer;179340]Lets say we have a foot with a broken back axis, the distal end of p-2 is usually lower in the capsule. So if we elevate the foot to restore the hpa with wedges or whatever means and also providing support to p-2. By doing this do we not elevate the distal end of p-2, would that not change the COA measurement on the bottom of the foot. I'm not saying the actual COA changes but would the point on the bottom of the foot change. Geometry tells me it would but I have been wrong before.

The reason I am thinking this is because of this x-ray if the coa is measured and we provide 50\50 relationship the front portion of the 50% is not obtainable. Somebody please explain what I am doing wrong, I am about to pull my hair out.

Justin Decker

11609

Justin,
Don't over think it or pull your hair out. Both will hurt.:D Think of your red line as a pendulum or plum line. As you raise the joint, your line will move forward. Thus gaining ground surface at the back of the foot and getting you closer to a 50/50 ratio. You haven't changed the center of articulation,just raised it up.;)

Clint

[cuttinshoer]

[quote]

Justin,
Don't over think it or pull your hair out. Both will hurt.:D Think of your red line as a pendulum or plum line. As you raise the joint, your line will move forward. Thus gaining ground surface at the back of the foot and getting you closer to a 50/50 ratio. You haven't changed the center of articulation,just raised it up.;)

Clint

Thanks Clint, that is exactly how I was think about it but wanted to make sure I was on the right path because everyone said it couldn't change.

Justin Decker

[irishcas]

I figured there would be about as many ways to find COA as there are farriers but I didn't expect it to be such a hotly debated topic. I will say however, that I am learning from this thread and I appreciate everyone's input.


Thanks
David

Gee David, I'm glad someone else is such a troublemaker, it was starting to feel lonely in my corner :D

[DavidinGA]

Gee David, I'm glad someone else is such a troublemaker, it was starting to feel lonely in my corner :D

Now see here, I'm not a trouble maker at all...I will however instigate and agitate any trouble that has already been started.;)

David

[Ray_Knightley]

Does COA really have anything to do with horses ?
Is it not a spot, and not a line looked at from the side??
Where is the body in relation to COA and the weight and the amount of weight and position of that weight inflight and the limb in question ..?
If COA not just a model that is easy to look at ??and is not the over all balance more important??
Is not gravitational pull the thing ...sure horses on the moon would not have as many problems as here on earth???

Happy for any answers and sorry if I missed the point all together..:p

[Clint Burrell]

[QUOTE=Ray_Knightley;179423]Does COA really have anything to do with horses ?
Is it not a spot, and not a line looked at from the side??
Where is the body in relation to COA and the weight and the amount of weight and position of that weight inflight and the limb in question ..?
If COA not just a model that is easy to look at ??and is not the over all balance more important??
Is not gravitational pull the thing ...sure horses on the moon would not have as many problems as here on earth???

Happy for any answers and sorry if I missed the point all together..:p

Ray,
Yes,yes and yes. Horses on the moon wouldn't have as "many" problems,but ,that lack of oxygen thing might be a big one to overcome.:p

As for the "point", it's always at the end. Unless it's broken, then it's in the middle somewhere.:D

Clint

Proud supplier of "clint's", no roll box rollers. Not available in stores.