Club feet..making them the same size?

[calshoer]

I want to spark some discusion on the reasons why one would want to make a pair of mismatched the feet wear the same size shoes, or why not.

Here is a horse that came to me about five years ago. Five or six year old half arabian pinto. She had just been purchased by the client and had passed the pre purchase soundness exam. However the client reported the mare did occsionally stumble on the RF.
And according to this first time owner, no one ( including the vet who passed her ) had pointed out that the mare had a club foot.

This mare came with the same size shoes both front feet. The left fore was rounder, a pretty nice shaped foot.( Sorry I didn't get pics) The previous farrier had even added equilox to extend the toe of the foot to make it look the same angle as the other foot.
The mare was landing heel first on the low foot, and flat to slightly toe first on the club foot.

After the shoeing she landed heel first on both feet. I have shown the shoe the foot had on, and the one I put on it , shaped and ready to nail.

So which shoeing do you think was more likely to cause (or prevent) eventual lameness in the club foot? And why?

And do you think the horse had a more even stride with the previous shoeing (same size shoes) or the later one, which ended up with eventers a whole size different between the two feet?
Patty

[Dave Purves]

I use the same size shoe. If the "normal" foot wears a size one, then I will shape a size one to the club foot, fitting it as wide as I can get away with, still being able to drive good nails. Usually you can measure the trimmed feet and notice that the club foot is at least 1/4 inch shorter, so I will add leather pads, normally a rim pad with frog support, to make up the difference. Many times when you measure the discrepency in the length of the feet, that will add up to 1/2 of the discrepency in the shoulders. I'm not so much trying to make the feet the same size, as I'm trying to lift the shoulder the same height as the other, and offer the smaller foot more surface area.
My father in law breeds horses with club feet, it's usually the left front. These horses have a hard time picking up and keeping the right lead, and they often continually swap leads in the back making them very uncomfortable to ride. I tried this after reading an article by Dave Farley and it worked great. The horse was more comfortable to ride, stopped swapping leads in the back and had no problem picking up the correct lead. I find that by using the same size shoe, it helps in determining how much "lift" to give the foot. I'll try to take some pics as I have to reset one tommarrow.
Dave

[Gary Hill]

I also use the same size shoe, the differance is ,I will set more breakover to the "not" club foot. Stride stays the same and the horse mores OK as far as my eye and my butt sees and feels it. VERY good topic, look forward to more discussion! Best, Gary

[calshoer]

Ok one more .....
I have no qualms about a pad to raise the club foot (sometimes I have done that) or a wedge pad on the low foot if that is needed.(done that too) I find sometimes one works sometimes the other, but more often I need neither to even out the gait .
Just moving the breakover back on the club foot usually does it.
BUT heres the continuing question...if you fit the larger size shoe to the club foot, but you can not trim the heels of the foot down to the same height as the other then how do you get the shoe to fit the smaller foot without either extending the toe of ther shoe beyond the foot or having too much heel sticking out the back? Especially since the foot is narrower anyway which would mean less metal to cover it ?
And if the heels of the club foot shoe stuck out the back, the horse would likely pull it.
So how do you get it to fit without increasing the leverage/breakover forces in the coffin joint, or having lost shoes?

[Julie Plaster]

I will address the breakover timing for each foot. It's hard for me to see sometimes, I like to listen to the footfall rythmn, pitch and tone of it. Concrete is nice for that. Good sounding footfall is kind of like music.

If I can get the same size to work with the breakover without sacrificing fit, I'll go with that. I've also fit with different size shoes. I have done both.

I have actually thought about the idea, if I had one foot smaller than the other, wouldn't I rather have one on that fit each of my feet or wear one that was too big. If I wore a tennis shoe that was too big would I wear extra socks, stuff the toe, or wear one that fit each foot. Might look funny but could I run better?

Again, good discussion.

Julie :-)

[Gary Hill]

Patti , for a short while I had and shod a horse the way your last post described. While I rode the horse afterwards it felt like his shoulder was dropping on the club side and would NOT pick up that lead. I changed the shoeing to more breakover on the good foot and the club pretty much no change and the horse rode off and picked up both leads. I reluctantly sold the horse to a can turner that couldn't live without him! Made some good money on that deal and the horse won considerable money for the lady? Kinda goes back to a question I posted on these boards, " How many farriers actual ride also and can feel unbalance?" Respectfully, Gary
P.S. An unbalanced stride is so noticeable, Why would you want to shorten it up so much more?

[Phil Armitage]

When I shoe a club footed horse I like to achieve the proper breakover for each foot and many times I end up putting a smaller shoe on the club foot and the horse moves fine. I like the idea of helping out the shoulders, hips and pasturn joints. It does not make sense to me to try and make the smaller foot the same size as the larger foot. I have seen improvement getting that toe back and trimming the heels down. Now I think if you trim the heels down, you should look at how the foot lands after your done, you may have to add a wedge with frog support to the club foot to achieve a slight heel first landing. You may have to do the same to the low foot. I think it is best to determine this based on how the feet are landing. I am open to suggestions as to what is best for the rest of the horse, it is obvious that many of these horses have discomfort else where and it can be affected by shoeing.

[Dave Purves]

I didn't get to that horse today, and we're heading for Texas tomarrow but as soon as I get back, I'll take some pics of how I shoe a club foot. To me you have to trim back the heels, then with pads (not wedge pads) raise the entire limb, to even out the limb deviance. I never understood wedging up a club foot, why not just not trim the heels and then add frog support? To me you cut the heels to give the foot a more proper angulation, align the HPA and derotate the coffin bone. Then when I add the pads, the tension on the DDFT is eased, the foot can relax and you have a more normal limb and foot. Just wedging up the club foot only acts to put the boney column back in the same alignment you had before you trimmed the heels back.
jmo
Dave
I get back next monday, so hopefully tuesday I'll get some pics posted

[Moses Shaw]

Dave i gotta know how this works? so you lower the heels on a club foot and then pad it up, the palmer angle of p3 has been moved closer to zero(derotation) and then you put a flat pad on which raises the entire boney column ok im good with all of that but how does that decrease DDFT tension? Be Safe Mo

[calshoer]

Gary wrote: " How many farriers actual ride also and can feel unbalance?" Respectfully, Gary
P.S. An unbalanced stride is so noticeable, Why would you want to shorten it up so much more?

Youre right not many farriers ride enough or well enough to feel the gaits(though I knew a terrific vet who did)
AS to shortening up the stride more, that confused me a lot at first until I
looked at the whole relationship of breakover, foot flight and stride extension differently.
When the club foot is delayed in breakover due to either a long toe or too tall of heels (both will delay heel lift in relation to the leg position) then by the time the foot gets moving the limb is tipped forther forward than the other limb was when THAT foot lifted.
So the timing of the two feet moving through the air and getting to the ground is different.
By removing ONLY as much heel as the foot will easily release (finding live sole plane) and then placing breakover point relative to THAT individual coffin bione, I find the foot moves more efficiently in relation to the position iof THAT leg at the moment of heel lift. Then it has the TIME to go as far forward as possible in the air, lift the toe and land heel first. That allows for a lengthened stride.
The other logic question I apply is this:
If the club foot is landing flat or toe first , then the breakover is moved back , and the heels lowered some, and the foot then switches to a heel first landing , is the stride now shorter or longer? As well if one foot is heel forst and the other toe first, is the stride even? Or if both feet land the same amount of heel first, is the stride even?
Anyway I just find that they achieve an equal heel landing and equal stride between the two feet if I treat each foot individually.
Certainly a lot do not ever get *totally* matched in stride, because the internal angles of a lot of the steructures do not match, but at least they get consistantly better.
I have found too that another benefit of them landing more heel first with a shorter breakover point is the club foot usually releases more dead sole in the heel area each subsequent shoing because it is using the heels more , and by naturally releaseing more sole every time, the hoof angle lowersand the heels widen some.Sometimes I begin with a smaller shoe and get to the same size shoe after three or so shoeings. They often naturally drop a grade in severity.
However when I used to try to make them match in angle , leaving a little more toe, they consistantly grew the tall heels back really fast. Just what works for me, just offering it up for consideration.

BUT since some of you obviously do something totally different but achieve good results too, do you suppose we are achieving some common biomechanical change ,using different approaches ? :confused: Patty

[Gary Hill]

Some other thoughts on this are: Why does the unaffected good foot always end up looking bad? I like Dave's thoughts about raiseing the whole limb with rim pads and have had some success. I just wish the breeders would STOP breeding horses with this condition! Thanks for you thoughts, Gary

[calshoer]

Some other thoughts on this are: Why does the unaffected good foot always end up looking bad?

Boy That's the million dollar question....I sure don't have a clue. If someone does they could be a millionaire. I only suppose it might be beause of the horse maybe leaning on that foot more over it's lifetime?
I do know the unaffected foot (which is sometimes actually the WORSE foot with negative plane and such) gets better when the club foot gets better. Maybe the horse begins to use his whole body more evenly. Of course I treat the unaffected foot too, as I would treat any low heel long toe foot.
Patty

[Phil Armitage]

I quess you could say all four feet are affected, the whole horse is affected. All this discussion is good, it gets us all thinking. I know I am and takeing in everything. Great discussion.

[Gary Hill]

Well that's a round about way of how I approach clubs. I kinda see a club like a founder in that the bone has rotated and does need to be derotated. All the while the "good" foot has had to work overtime with the extra load, so it does appear to be a LTLH type foot. In the horse's stride of course the club is going to breakover faster, so that's why I try to make the "good" foot breakover alittle quicker with of course lot's of heel support. A bigger shoe on that foot oppossed to a smaller shoe on the club. The club is set to breakover where needed but I might get a little more aggressive on the breakover of the "good" foot. When I say smaller ,I don't downsize the club ,just approach it as, "OK ,this foot really wants to be this way, as long as it doesn't get any worse for wear lets help this horse's stride to be alittle more balanced to the club by working on the good foot." I have had decent results and the clubs don't get any worse and after some time, the derotation starts to show? I'm sure everyone has put an eggbar on one foot and and open heel shoe on the other at one time or another. This worked on another old barrel horse and kept him serviceable without the use of bute or anything else to block or cover pain. Club feet are the biggest pain in the donkey, because like lots of things, not always does it work for every horse.
This is a good discussion, would love to hear more on how others approach this problem? Best, Gary

[Ronald Aalders]

I know I'm kind of late jumping in here, but well you know horse shoers are always late.

In my opinion a 'straight horse' -a horse that does not favour one side but is evenly develloped all through its body- will have matching feet. Always. So mismatched feet indicate a horse is not straight. Very few are straight by the way. Some 2 year olds are but they loose that soon enough when training gets tougher on their bodies.

So when faced with a situation Patty described, we know that not only the feet don't match, but somewhere in its body the horse will have a 'reason' to favour one side. Obviously the our problem always is, we can only work on feet and add or cut or do whatever we think is wise, on feet. We can not change anything else.

The matched feet scenario is a good one. You want feet to match, or to put it in better words, you don't want a horse to have a 'natural' shaped foot and an 'unnatural' shaped foot. However, you need to realise that there is a reason for the horse to have feet that don't match! Unless you take away that reason, you'll end up with feet that will at best improve a little, but will never really match.

By working towards matching feet -and doing it wisely- what you really are trying to do is reduce the effects the body and ground reaction forces ultimately have on the feet. This way we hope that the reason for the mismatched feet softens up a little allowing the horse to move straighter and even out the feet even more. (But we all know it's rare when you're able to even out really mismatched feet.)

In this particular case Patty described, we know that the RF is the one with a high PA. This one could well be a 8 degree or more. How that foot got to be that way I don't know, Patty won't know, probably no one does. When we leave the foot as is, the reason for the foot to grow that way will be emphasised. Also you'll find that sooner or later the foot can not cope with the unnatural strain being put on it. You don't want that, you want the opposite you want to ease off of the problem, whatever that problem may be. That way you protect the foot ánd you make sure the reason for the feet being mismatched doesn't get worse.

So what you need to do here in my opinion is reduce the PA on the high foot to a 'normal' level, if you have to raise the low one to a 'normal' level. In high/low situations you need to realize that feet should have a matching shape as much as possible, but also a matching ground surface. So the way the feet are supported by the ground match too. This is very important and the main reason why you should never just jack up the low foot and leave the high one.

I said it before several times, we need to shoe the coffin bone, not the foot. When the coffin bone is positioned correctly and the breakover and support are correct and even, the foot shape will be corrected automatically. I know usually we can at best improve on the situation. The reason is that the original problem somewhere in the body, is not taken care of by just shoeing. Getting feet to match is a way to prevent things getting worse. Since usually we can not change the reason for the feet being uneven, the problem will be a recurring one. It is important though to keep 'normalizing' the foot as much as we can. If we don't we will make matters worse. Not only will the problem (whatever it is) for the mismatched feet get worse, but also will we put feet in a position where they can not handle the stress anymore and break down in to quarter cracks, navicular disease, and what else.



Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Ronald this is the way I have alway viewed the problem with mismatched feet. This is also why I have always avoided mismatched feet as a rider/owner. I have always beleived mismatched feet are a symptom of a problem. Sometimes the problems is easy to fix, sometimes it is not. When I hear a Vet tell a horse owner that feet should match, I hear a vet warning the horse owner to stay away that this is a problem, not "Your Farrier should make the feet match" Many times I have run into owners that just know enough to be dangerous and think there Vet is recommending the farrier should match the feet. I believe if you attempt to match feet your going to end up with to much toe on the smaller clubby foot and exasperate the problem even more depending on what the problem is and have a downward spiral of all kinds of complications. I do think in some cases by achieveing proper breakover and heel length and useing wedges, frog support etc this helps to keep horses comfortable and may over time get a horse to be more symetrical in there body. Propper rideing and training also helps horses become more balanced. Very good discussion.

[Dave Purves]

Well, here are the pics as promised. The LF is probably a grade 1-1.5 club foot. Not too bad, I realized after taking the pics I should've taken a pic before the trim, as you can see the dish in the toe and the more upright angle.

Dave

[Dave Purves]

Again the club foot

[Dave Purves]

With the shoe and pad

[Dave Purves]

The non-club foot

[Dave Purves]

The club foot again, I put hoofpak under the pad for some frog support
Dave

[Dave Purves]

The finished two feet. The hairlines are about even with each other, I took pics after the trim with the measuring tape on the toe showing toe length but I couldn't get them to load up. Anyway, the toe lenght of the club foot after trim was 3 inches, the non club foot was about 3 3/8 after applying the "package" both were about the same, or right around 3 3/4. The shoes are pulled back off the toe slightly on both feet, and the toes are slightly rolled.

There's your ammo, have fun.
Dave

[calshoer]

NICE! :D Patty

[Dave Purves]

I got it to finally load, resizing is a *****!

this is the club foot after trim
Dave

[Dave Purves]

Non cub foot, a little over a 1/4 inch difference

[Dave Purves]

Club foot with shoe and pad, about 3 1/2 inches from hairline to ground

[Dave Purves]

Non cub foot about the same, just a hair over 3 1/2

Dave

[Dave Purves]

NICE! :D Patty

Thanks :D Dave

[Wannabeee]

Nice work Dave

[Jaye Perry]

Non cub foot about the same, just a hair over 3 1/2

Dave

To be a CF with the AFA your nail pattern is ****!

[Dave Purves]

Well I can't win this argument, the middle nail on the medial side of the RF is a little lower than the other two. So I went to find a picture of the lateral side nails and found this one, which has a better nail pattern, but I drug the last clinch really bad, and the other two a little. I didn't realize I was doing that until I saw the pics. :confused:

[Jason Maki]

Dave,
It's really nice to see quality work. top shelf.
Jason

[Rick Burten]

To be a CF with the AFA your nail pattern is ****!


As an AFA approved Tester, I might point out that when evaluating the nailing, there are two sections:

1. Height
2.Alignment

In evaluating height, the candidate will receive a "10" when" Nails exit the wall 1/3 the height of the wall at the heel nail and ascend toward the toe. They are 2/3rds the distance from the coronary band to the ground.

A candidate will receive a "4", a "6", or an "8" (or any of those plus .5) when "There are varying degrees of error in exit height of nails.

In evaluating alignment, a candidate receives a "10" when "The nails exit the hoof wall in a straight line parallel to the coronary band".

A candidate receives a "4", "6", or "8" (and potentially plus .5) when "There are varying degrees of error in the alignment of the nails."

Reference: American Farrier's Association Certification Study Guide, Including Guuidelines for Evaluating Farrier Certifiecations; Revised July 2005;pp46-47

Thus, using those guidelines, I would have given scores in the 7 to 8 range, which is passing for those elements.

Therefore, the work would have met the requirements for those elements and is deemed satisfactory for the purpose of the exam and towards the awarding of the "CF" appellation.

The requirements for clinches would also have been met.

[Dave Purves]

Thanks Jason, that's a real compliment coming from you. :D

And thank you Rick, it's nice to know that I may still be able to pass the test.

Dave

[Phil Armitage]

Nice job Dave, looks great and I also like the shoe placement, nice heel support and the hoof prep appears to give this horse good breakover. Nailing looks good, clinches look ideal not invadeing the hoof wall but strong enough to hold the shoe on. Nice job on the clips they look great. When I first looked at the dorsal wall, I was thinking the breakover might be able to go back a littler further, but as I look at where the shoe ends, your pretty close to where I would have placed it. The other thing I notice is how healthy these feet look and I attribute this to proper shoeing.

[Dave Purves]

Thank you Phil.

Dave

[calshoer]

Denise I sure wouldn't say this is contracted.The frog for sure could use a little help but the heels of the FOOT (not the shoe heels) are not contracted. If you draw a line ferom the ends of the heels through the center of the foot, the width of the heels is at least as wide as the width where the lines come out i nthe toe corners. Not contracted by that standard, which is the standard I have always used.
Show me a *healthy* bare front foot with heels much wider than that.(not one that is weakened and collapsed)
Here is the foot in question AND a freshly captured wild horse foot from Genes old study , both marked . Feral foot totally "natural" and healthy .
I can't see the difference in heel proportions. Patty

[Jaye Perry]

As an AFA approved Tester, I might point out that when evaluating the nailing, there are two sections:

1. Height
2.Alignment

............

The requirements for clinches would also have been met.


Yeah, he has meet AFA requirement and mine also. He has nailed up many of my show horses. I have no problem with his nailing. **** was a joke, just hacking on him because i am behind and he will be flying in in a couple weeks to help out.

Here's a club foot from today. Just have the x-ray, having trouble uploading pic. Coronary is wider than foot.

[Jaye Perry]

....... Here's a club foot from today. Just have the x-ray, having trouble uploading pic. Coronary is wider than foot.


Here's the A/P

[Phil Armitage]

Phil wrote:


Phil,
I would like to know what you base your criteria on for judging these as healthy feet. To me, these are not healthy feet. The non-club foot is contracted in the heels, the frog is not robust and healthy, there is evidence of trauma to the medial side of the sole, the bars are showing signs of having been left too long, and the dorsal wall is dishy. Not much to say about the club-foot other than it is a club foot and is contracted (can't see the sole).
Denise

Hi Denise, I quess I do not see it the same way you do. They look healthy, no flares, no rings, no bruiseing, sole looks healthy, frog looks healthy. The look strong and sound.

The heels do not look contracted to me, how did you determine that the heels are contracted?

The frog looks healthy to me, why do you say the frog is not robust?

I do not see any signes of trauma to the medial side of the sole, what do you see?

The bars do not show signes of being too long, they have a slight curve to them, however I have been taught that this is normal. What do you see that indicates they have been left too long?

[Phil Armitage]

Hey Jay, side bone have anything to do with the coronary being wider than the foot? Conformation and size and type of job have anything to do with this horse haveing sidebone? Sidebone have anything to do as to why this horse was taken to the Vet.? Was the Vet called because the horse was off?

[Jaye Perry]

Hey Jay, side bone have anything to do with the coronary being wider than the foot? Conformation and size and type of job have anything to do with this horse haveing sidebone? Sidebone have anything to do as to why this horse was taken to the Vet.? Was the Vet called because the horse was off?


No, No, the horse was vetted for purchase, $210k.

17.3 h WB, 3'6" Jr. Horse. has been sound, did 2 weeks at an "A" Circuit show and was sound. Medial toe of the coffin bone is degenerative and so forth.
Just another day shoeing horses.

[Phil Armitage]

Denise that foot looks really bad to me not even 50/50 which is not even considered the ideal by some. The junction of the bars are clearly identifiable so there is no question where the center of the foot is, you almost have a 40/60 deal going on here, 40% heel and 60% toe (maybe 70/30 yikes), not good for the mechanics at all. Those heels look no wider in relation to the toe as the other foot posted here, but the balance on the foot Dave did is ideal, 60% heel and 40% toe, much better on the mechanics.

[Phil Armitage]

No, No, the horse was vetted for purchase, $210k.

17.3 h WB, 3'6" Jr. Horse. has been sound, did 2 weeks at an "A" Circuit show and was sound. Medial toe of the coffin bone is degenerative and so forth.
Just another day shoeing horses.

Well there you go, buy a cheap horse and see what you get. :)

[Dave Purves]

It looks to me like, the heels are not trimmed back to the widest part of the frog, if you trimmed them back you would notice that they would be closer to the frog, not contracted, but not as wide as they are now. As for your "robust" frog, it seems to me your foot is prolapsed, maybe from having the heels not trimmed back far enough.
jmo
Dave

[Rick Burten]

Phil

You got there before I did :o

While the subject at hand was regarding contracted vs non-contracted heels, and the photos Denise posted do not appear to have heel contraction, the overall condition of the examples is, to me, much the same as your observations.

In addition to the hoof mass ratio being incorrect, I too see several problems with these feet. So, while the horse may not be lame, these to me are not examples of healthy feet.

Perhaps Denise has some photos of healthy, correctly balanced, non-contracted heel feet she might post for us to view.

[calshoer]

Patty, Do you know any details about the feral hoof? ie how long had the horse been in captivity, the terrain it was on, physical condition of the horse
I asked the exact same question about length of time in captivity when I attended the very first lecture ten yars ago. That feral horse had been in captivity *less than three days*, gathered from the dry hard envorinments, and held in hard dry pens. Gene could tell you about overall body condition. The feral feet from softer environments have even narower frogs.
I have seen other pics of feral feet though and none have the flattened appearance of your supposedly "good" non contrated feet. To me, the feet you show look collapsed and also stretched forward. The ratios on your examples are not healthy at all and nothing like a natural, feral foot. Here is another feral picture, this horse gathered from a softer environment,again in captivity less than few days. Look at that puny frog. Yet it was functioning fine because the hels sunk into the soft dirt and the sole and frog therefore got the support they needed. See,a truly natural foot DOESN'T necessarily look like what Strasser and a few other so called "natural" practitioners says they have to in order to be sound and healthy.
Patty

[Dave Purves]

:

The non-club foot is contracted in the heels,

How so? What makes you say the heels are contracted?


[/QUOTE]the frog is not robust and healthy,[/QUOTE]

The frog is progressing very nicely as a matter of fact, and believe it or not, bears a good amount of weight. Maybe the term "robust" doesn't apply, but it is certainly much healthier now, than it was when I first started shoeing this horse, typical LTLH.


[/QUOTE]there is evidence of trauma to the medial side of the sole, [/QUOTE]

I think what you're seeing is the residue from hot fitting the shoes, it does look a little brownish/reddish, but I assure you there is no bruising. If that is not what you see, please enlighten me.


[/QUOTE]the bars are showing signs of having been left too long,[/QUOTE]

How do you arrive at that conclusion?


[/QUOTE]and the dorsal wall is dishy. [/QUOTE]

Yes, the dorsal wall is ever so slightly dished, but if you align your staight edge from the hairline to the toe of the shoe, and then back a little to take into account the toe is rolled, you will find a pretty nice healthy line. I couldn't address all of the dish as it would invade too much wall.


[/QUOTE] Not much to say about the club-foot other than it is a club foot and is contracted (can't see the sole).
Denise[/QUOTE]

Yes it is slightly contracted, but can you show me a club foot that isn't? It's been my experience that club feet tend to be very narrow in comparison to the "healthy" foot. That was the topic of this thread, and why I posted these pictures. If you go back and read the the first page, Patty asked, why you would shoe a club foot to make it the same size as the "healthy" foot. I think more or less in response to another thread where I remarked on shoeing a club foot. I posted these pics to show how I do it, same size shoes, pad to lift the club foot up, and essentially "support" the medial and lateral quarters, and even more the heel quarters. Looking at the finished product, it's hard to see really how "narrow" that foot is" especially when looking at the bottom of the foot.
that's my take, and while the feet aren't gleaming of natures perfect answer to hoof health, I'm pretty sure they look pretty good for what they are. And more importantly the horse is easier to ride, picks up leads that it wouldn't before, and no longer swaps leads in the back end. There is a long way to go, but these particular feet are headed in the right direction.

Thanks again Phil and everyone else for the kind words.
Dave

[Jason Maki]

Denise,
Your whole foot is forward to my eyes. I would bring it back, both heels and toe.
Gotta love the internet! ;)
Everybodies an expert from the safetey of their chair!
Jason

[calshoer]

Also, what are your thoughts of this trim on these feet? On photo 067 is the line indicating the widest part of the foot really at the widest part of the foot, or should it be further back? Do the bars really terminate where that line is drawn or are they grown forward? What about the proportions on photo 059?
Denise
I marked them up ,along woth one of the others you posted that you said was 50-50.
The black breakover lines on #67 and #59 are where I would put it, I can't tell where you have it except to say I don't think you could get it there safely barefoot unless you left a bit more hoofwall on the toe corners before you rockered it in (the 1/8"of extra wall around there that Gene recommends when barefooting,for that reason). Also the bars of one are still very curved in the picture, have they gotten better now since it has been a year?
The yellow lines on the other one are where you say is 50 50 , if I understand your description of it correctly? The problem I see is the frog is distorted, stretched, and throwing you off from where the widest part of the foot really is. It is much further back. I marked where I would say is was. That illustrates how sdistorted the front half of that foot really is. I use NB shoes on these types to really jump start them to morphing their own hoofwall shape back closer to the coffin bone and frog apex. Patty

[Mike Ferrara]

Patty,
Sorry, that was a trick question. The foot labeled 67 was from an NB clinic I attended in Pa a few years ago. :eek: I watched the person mark and trim this foot while you supervised. Apparently at the time, the way the foot was marked and trimmed was correct because nothing was said to this person that anything was incorrect. Photo 59 was the hoof Gene marked and trimmed for demo.

Denise

My GOODNESS what a rotten low down trick! It made my morning though :)

As a side note, what about the horses that don't roll their own toe when barefoot even on abrasive ground? I see plenty of this including on feet that would never come near these supposedly ideal ratios. Does that mean that break over is where it should be already?

[Ronald Aalders]

Didn't Shakespeare say something about women and their tricks?

See what happens when you let somebody else do your job? Everybody will consider mistakes made in supervising, are really flaws in a theory. (Thank God I work alone)


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

Patty,
Sorry, that was a trick question. The foot labeled 67 was from an NB clinic I attended in Pa a few years ago. I watched the person mark and trim this foot while you supervised. Apparently at the time, the way the foot was marked and trimmed was correct because nothing was said to this person that anything was incorrect. Photo 59 was the hoof Gene marked and trimmed for demo.
Thats OK. I expect that sometimes. :rolleyes:
I remember the clinic (if it was the one where it poured cats and dogs and we were in the bank barn?) .
In general ,most of the barefoot horses Gene and I have seen at all the east coast trimming clinics are already FAR too overtrimmed before we get there and there is not much to work with to make changes. Too much toe has been removed already and sometimes the back of the feet have be invaded. As well, some of the trimmers (and farriers recieving the shoeing pintructuoon ) take too much off the toe before I can even stop them and there is not much to do at that time to fix it. Instructors have to do the best they can with what is there that day .
********More important,********
a couple of things in the NB protocol application have changed since that clinic.
First, the determination of "widest part" HAS CHANGED a little since that clinic. We used to mark it from the ends of the bars and a measurement back from the apex of the frog but we now know it IS usually further back than we used to see it. Gene will tell you now the distance from the apex back is more than he used to think it was. That newer method of finding it is based on detailed radiographic studies that Gene and Dr Page have done since that clinic.(not published yet)
Second, Gene now leaves a little more wall around the front of the foot so the rocker can be rolled in better in those kind of feet without invading the callous. . He was not marking around the sole wall junction in the toe back then, now he does. The idea now is to make sure the mark is still intact in the toe corners.
Those very issues , at that clinic is what helped create the little changes to the technique that he uses now. That is why it is so important to keep coming to the seminars every couple of years, because things evolve and refine. :cool:
Patty

[brian robertson]

Impressive spin there, Patty. Are you related to Carl Rove (Dubya's puppet master)? I believe you should include a disclaimer with all your posts, stating that the following information you provide is a paid commercial advertisement. Maybe Baron should be compensated for the constant NB infommercial.

[calshoer]

Mike said: As a side note, what about the horses that don't roll their own toe when barefoot even on abrasive ground? I see plenty of this including on feet that would never come near these supposedly ideal ratios. Does that mean that break over is where it should be already?
I have never, ever seen one that DIDN'T roll it's toes even on soft ground. In fact those on hard ground develop a more noticeable roll.
You may have to get them up on concrete and look from the side,or mark the foot with a flat board with something wet on it to see it. It is not usually a huge roll. Just the a subtle roll where they break over. heres a couple .One from soft ground with a LOT of wall, one worn short. These are pretty typical. .The HEELS are usually what seems to throw off the ratios at first glance but consider the heels sink into the dirt and the back of the FROG is considered the last rearward weight bearing spot.
On the long foot I only had some hoofflex grease to put on a board to mark it but I wanted to show it DOES roll. Ihad a lot of grease o nthe board so it smeared some but the end of the toe is (a little out of the picture) WAS left dry because it had enough roll to not contact the board. . If this foot did not have all that unnatural wall, the outer edge fo the short wall would be rolled around the toe .
I have NEVER found a bare foot that has the breakover at the primeter of the wall , unless someone just trimmed it and did not roll off the wall ot it never leaves the bedded stall. If you have some pictures of some, and their envorinments, I would love to see them.
Patty

[calshoer]

Impressive spin there, Patty. Are you related to Carl Rove (Dubya's puppet master)? I believe you should include a disclaimer with all your posts, stating that the following information you provide is a paid commercial advertisement. Maybe Baron should be compensated for the constant NB infommercial.
It is not spin, it is just the truth .There is a valid explanation for the descrepancy in my current evaluation of the pictures and what Gene and I were doing at a clinic several years ago. No more no less.
Some things in that particular protocol HAVE changed a little since that clinic.
Hardly an advertizement, just a clarificaion of some facts.
And since it IS the protocol I use successfully on adaily basis and I am one of the most completely informed farriers besides Gene in the technique, I feel it is OK to continue to clarify and explain the technique. It is my area of expertise. If you were an expert in say heart bars ,or rock and roll shoes, you would be perfectly within your rights, (and probably expected) to do the same thing.
Patty

[Jaye Perry]

Here's the A/P


Here's the actual foot pertaining to a/p and lateral x-rays posted #39 #40 of this thread. Horse was presented with a missing shoe. i hadn't shod this horse before, his feet need some work.

[Jaye Perry]

Here's the actual foot pertaining to a/p and lateral x-rays posted. Horse was presented with a missing shoe. i hadn't shod this horse before, his feet need some work.


Lateral Pic

[Jaye Perry]

Feet need some work but will do for 4 weeks.

[Mike Ferrara]

Mike said:
I have never, ever seen one that DIDN'T roll it's toes even on soft ground. In fact those on hard ground develop a more noticeable roll.
You may have to get them up on concrete and look from the side,or mark the foot with a flat board with something wet on it to see it. It is not usually a huge roll. Just the a subtle roll where they break over. heres a couple .One from soft ground with a LOT of wall, one worn short. These are pretty typical. .The HEELS are usually what seems to throw off the ratios at first glance but consider the heels sink into the dirt and the back of the FROG is considered the last rearward weight bearing spot.
On the long foot I only had some hoofflex grease to put on a board to mark it but I wanted to show it DOES roll. Ihad a lot of grease o nthe board so it smeared some but the end of the toe is (a little out of the picture) WAS left dry because it had enough roll to not contact the board. . If this foot did not have all that unnatural wall, the outer edge fo the short wall would be rolled around the toe .
I have NEVER found a bare foot that has the breakover at the primeter of the wall , unless someone just trimmed it and did not roll off the wall ot it never leaves the bedded stall. If you have some pictures of some, and their envorinments, I would love to see them.
Patty

Thanks Patty. Good explaination. Of course when I said "not rolled" I didn't eactly mean flat like a streight edge and just been rasped perfectly flat. I think flat edges will round off all around the foot though and that's not what I would consider breakover. I'll try to get some pictures in the not too distant fueture to show what I was trying to describe. ?I need a better camera but the pictures you posted aren't unexpected. They are a bit different from the dramatically moved back break over we often hear about these days.

[Mike Ferrara]

Reading back. That last post of mine was not worded well. I'll try to get some pictures but I see hoofs with less roll than the pictures patty posted...barely (or not at all) distinguishable from the roll/wear around the rest of the foot. My own mare is one of them in fact.

[calshoer]

They are a bit different from the dramatically moved back break over we often hear about these days.
That is where some of the confusion arises. The breakover is not moved BACK from aything. It is placed to a spot mapped out FORWARD of the widest part of the foot, and at the top or rear edge of the sole callous. (depending on barefoot or shod)
If any appear set way back it is because the toe of those particular feet had distorted far forward so there is a lot of dead material left overhanging the first time. Then the whole foot changes so there is less excess toe every subsequent time. Here (again) is a normal everyday NB aluminum shoeing on a non distorted foot. There is very little toe over the shoe. The roll in the shoe is like a well worn shoe only still thick. And the shoe required very little shaping for this normal front hoof.
Patty

[matryoshka]

Back to the club foot discussion...

Have any feral horses been found with club feet?

I'm interested in learning how to trim club feet without shoes. One horse I trim has navicular and a club foot, and he's on a 1-year break from shoes, as recommended by the guy who usually shoes him. I've been trimming him every two weeks. He gets sore on the club foot for a couple of days after the trim, then rapidly improves. If the trim is put off much longer than 3 weeks, he gets sore again. Because I'm inexperienced, I asked the regular shoer to trim him the last time. He took the heel down to the same level I do, but he trimmed the front of the hoof back past the white line (about 45 degree angle from the sole). He showed me where the edge of the coffin bone should be, and said he brought the breakover back accordingly. The horse has been sore for over a week now.

Any comments or suggestions?

Pam

p.s. I, for one, appreciate all the info on NB. Patty gives lots of details that spark informative discussions.

[Rick Burten]

I'm interested in learning how to trim club feet without shoes.

Any comments or suggestions?

Pam


Sure, if you are wearing a slip on shoe, just slide right out of it, and go to work. If you are wearing lace-up shoes , first un-tie each one, loosen the laces and then remove the shoe . You are now ready to trim club feet without shoes. ;)

Bear in mind that this protocol can result in varying levels of damage to the feet. Your work area should be free of debris and contaminents that might impinge on the soles. Socks, especially argyles are acceptable. Extra care to prevent damage to or breakage of the tarsal and metatarsal bones of the foot must be taken . Developing a good sole calous will be essential.

[Donnie Walker]

Go to www.nanric.com, look under archives for wild horses feet for an indepth view of a study conducted on their feet. No clubs were found in nearly 2000 head.
I find each club foot that I care for to be totally different. Generally, if one becomes sensitive after trimming, then I erred, either in the toe area by removing too much, or by lowering the heels beyond what is acceptable to the animals DDFT. I generally do not use nippers beyond the frog apex of the ones I care for, and am very conservative with the rasp in the toe area. The breakover position is very critical in these type feet, and radiographs take the guess work out of the equation when trimming or shoeing for breakover, as well as identifying the position of P-3 and guaging the depth of sole. Hopefully the owner will do this for you. Also, your problem appears to be compounded by navicular. Was this determined through radiographs? If so, part of the above is now solved. Research has proven that pressure on the navicular bone is reduced by 25% with a two degree wedge. Taking the heel off might very well be aggravating the bone or tendon, so elevation might be an issue. I have successfully glued and nailed a #2 bar wedge on after trimming a barefooter suffering from what you describe. I then cut the bar out with a hacksaw blade. Good luck on yours.

[matryoshka]

Thanks for the replies.

Rick, do you recommend toe socks? Or will these become unnecessary after trimming barefoot for a while. :D

I don't have radiographs of his feet--he was diagnosed when he went lame a couple of years ago, before I started working there. I'm trying to keep him comfortable during his break from shoes. I don't remove any toe, other than to smooth the wall where it gets ragged. I tried trimming his heel to the the depth dictated by the live sole, but he got real sore in a week as the heel grows alarmingly fast. Maybe I should shoot for half way between where I was trimming it and where it wants to be. I see him often so I can keep tabs and adjust the trim if necessary. Thanks for the advice. He's a cool horse--QH, big hearted, former pony-club horse, etc. He'd make a great thera-peutic horse if we could get him comfortable enough to walk and trot with a rider.

Hmmm. No clubs in 2000 feral horses? I wonder if they don't survive long with club feet and therefore aren't there to be caught, never develp them because of all the movement, or if club feet got selected out of the population due to poor survival rates in the wild. It sure seems like we humans have a hand causing club feet, either through breeding or management. :(

Pam

[Rick Burten]

Also, your problem appears to be compounded by navicular. Was this determined through radiographs? If so, part of the above is now solved.

Whiin radiographs are useful in helping to diagnose many hoof pathologies, they are the least useful way of determining/diagnosing Navicular Disease or Syndrome.

Research has proven that pressure on the navicular bone is reduced by 25% with a two degree wedge.[/QUOTE}

Can you direct me to the reaearch to which you refer?

While I don't necessarily disagree, does it not depend on what the spatial orientation of the bones are at the time the wedges are applied?


[QUOTE=Donnie Walker]Taking the heel off might very well be aggravating the bone or tendon, so elevation might be an issue.

No argument here.

I have successfully glued and nailed a #2 bar wedge on after trimming a barefooter suffering from what you describe.

When you nail on a bar wedge pad, do you not violate the normal constraint about not nailing behind the widest part of the foot? And, since many of these feet tend to be either contracted, or prone to contraction, doesn't this exacerbate the potential for harm?

Since a #2 bar wedge does not necessarily or actually provide 2 degrees of lift, are you going by the thickness of the wedge in estimating how much heel lift may be necessary?

Will you use a higher degree of lift, or is the #2 pad a "standard"?

When you cut out the bar portion of the pad, if the frog is not incontact or at least close proximity to the ground, do you worry that the internal structures may prolapse and cause additional pain and problems?

If you have to go to the "trouble" of gluing and/or nailing on a pad, would it not be more worthwhile to just go ahead and shoe the horse appropriately, at least, short term?

One method I use to determine how much heel to remove is to have the horse stand on a reversed wedge pad , increasing the amount of wedge at the toe until the horse will not load his heels. I then measure the thickness of the wedge at the toe, subtract a minimum of 3/18", mark that amount on the heels and then trim with the nippers to a level 1/8" longer than that mark. That 1/8" difference lets me then do the rasp work that is necessary to finish the job.

Like you, I don't use nippers in front of the apex of the frog, I don't remove any anterior sole unless it is already exfoliating, and I work on the front part of the hoof from the outside dorsal surface only.

When I am going to shoe the horse, I tend to be a bit more aggressive with my trim, especially if the heels really need to be brought rearward, because I know I can add back whatever is needed for a heel first strike, either with wedge pads, a rail shoe, or both.

[brian robertson]

My latest theory on the occurence of club feet is not so much genetic but prenatal. I haven't got the numbers yet to publish anything but when I have been able to convince breeders not to supplement or richly feed their broodmares, prenatally and post partum, the incidence of clubby feet in subsequencial foals really drops off. The same stallions to the same mares but much fewer problems.
I preach the economics of saving money on feed, foal emergency hoofcare and possible surgery. Cutting those boogers is about $600 around here with no guarantee. Besides they will then have more money for the shoeman. In the last 5 years I haven't seen any more runts among these properly fed mares than before. It could all be cir***stantial and I know anecdotal claims are not science. But I think the current affluence among horse owners is causing the epidemenic of club feet. Lots of $, little common sense, and very few horsemen.

[Donnie Walker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie Walker
Also, your problem appears to be compounded by navicular. Was this determined through radiographs? If so, part of the above is now solved.

Burten: While radiographs are useful in helping to diagnose many hoof pathologies, they are the least useful way of determining/diagnosing Navicular Disease or Syndrome.

I totally agree. I meant there would be no use to obtain radiographs if they already existed.

Originally posted by Donnie Walker
Research has proven that pressure on the navicular bone is reduced by 25% with a two degree wedge.

Burten: Can you direct me to the research to which you refer?

THE VETERINARY CLINICS OF NORTH AMERICA - Equine Practice - Podiatry
Stephen e. O'Grady, DVM, MRCVS
Guest Editor
Diagnosis, treatment, and farriery for horses with chronic heel pain - pg.432
Robin M. Dabareiner, DVM, PhD
G. Kent Carter, DVM, MS

Originally posted by Donnie Walker: I have successfully glued and nailed a #2 bar wedge on after trimming a barefooter suffering from what you describe.

Burten: When you nail on a bar wedge pad, do you not violate the normal constraint about not nailing behind the widest part of the foot?

The last sentence of my original post: "I then cut the bar out with a hacksaw blade."I don't feel the nails would effect expansion under this scenario, but I could very well be wrong.

Burten: Since a #2 bar wedge does not necessarily or actually provide 2 degrees of lift, are you going by the thickness of the wedge in estimating how much heel lift may be necessary?

A #2 wedge is in close proximity to a 2 degree wedge shoe when placed side by side. I choose it over a #1 on a barefooter because of the strength factor. In rough terrain they wear down quite rapidly.

Burten: When you cut out the bar portion of the pad, if the frog is not in contact or at least close proximity to the ground, do you worry that the internal structures may prolapse and cause additional pain and problems?

I surely do, and at this point I am urging the owner to consider a shoeing package, but most just want them trimmed in a manner that presents them as being more comfortable. I only use the wedge on those with a known navicular issue.

I use the same method as you in determining how much heel to remove. Each one is an individual challenge, especially those in the performance field, and I find myself constantly scratching my head and hoping for the best.

Let me know about the nails and the expansion issue without the bar. I might need to modify the procedure, even though I don't have any with contracted heels.

Thank you for taking the time to address this with me. I always appreciate information, and especially guidance, if available.

Donnie Walker

[Rick Burten]

I'd like to see one(or more) of our farrier/engineers use his/her expertise to actually measure some of those wedged heel shoes and let us know if the degrees stated are truely accurate. Same for the pads.

Donnie,

If you were to place some mesh loosly under the pad prior to affixing it to the foot, and then cut the bar out and then added something like EquiPak to provide frog support, and while doing that you made sure that it did not bond to the wedges, could you not accomplish the task of supporting the frog, etal, and still reduce the possibility of causing contraction of the heels?

I don't know the answer because its something that just now occurred to me.

[Donnie Walker]

Rick - I never gave that a thought, but it sounds like it would work. I have one scheduled for this Wednesday and will post the results.

[Mike Ferrara]

I'd like to see one(or more) of our farrier/engineers use his/her expertise to actually measure some of those wedged heel shoes and let us know if the degrees stated are truely accurate. Same for the pads.

Donnie,

If you were to place some mesh loosly under the pad prior to affixing it to the foot, and then cut the bar out and then added something like EquiPak to provide frog support, and while doing that you made sure that it did not bond to the wedges, could you not accomplish the task of supporting the frog, etal, and still reduce the possibility of causing contraction of the heels?

I don't know the answer because its something that just now occurred to me.

I think all I have in the truck right now is #3 and #4 wedges along with some bar wedge pads that I got my mistake. I can check to see what the actual angle is and get back with it later.

[Mike Ferrara]

I only measured the number 3 and 4 wedges...sorrry I don't remember the brand.

For the number 3's I come up with 4.43 degrees and for the number 4's I come up with 5.73 degrees.

I'll be happy to go through the measurements and calculations if any one is interested.

[matryoshka]

Wow, great discussion! I like the idea of how Rick measures to figure out how much heel to remove. It sounds a whole lot better than guessing.

Do you leave the bars that grow all around the frog? Do you trim them to the level of the sole, or leave them slightly above?

And it sounds like neither of you take the breakover back past the white line. I don't do that either, since I prefer to err on the side of caution.

Thanks for the great info. I need to print it out so I can keep it all straight when I trim the horse next.

Pam

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=matryoshka]

>Do you leave the bars that grow all around the frog? Do you trim them to the level of the sole, or leave them slightly above?

Depends on what I see in the foot. Usually I trim them back to sole level or slightly below at the heels.

>And it sounds like neither of you take the breakover back past the white line. I don't do that either, since I prefer to err on the side of caution

Again, it depends on the foot. Often, I will start the breakover well behind the white line, but only if I feel there is enough sole depth. And even then, the transition is very gradual and non- invasive.