Could Someone take a look at these photos?

[Karen B.]

A girl who posted on another forum gave me permission to post her album here.She is having problems with her horses feet (obviously) and the people on the other forum ripped her to shreds.She's looking for advice or a referral of a good farrier.Please try to be kind.She is not a farrier or a "Hoof Guru".She's looking for advice and help.By the looks of her poor horses feet they will need a bit of work.I am giving her the link here so she may see any advice offered and answer any questions.Thanks~Karen (Edited for spelling correction)

http://community.webshots.com/user/gilly1331

[Karen B.]

I believe she said these photos were taken right after shoes were pulled and the horse was trimmed.I think the complaint was the horse was tripping and falling.I'm going to go back to the other board (non-farrier board) and make sure.

[Karen B.]

This was her post from the other board;
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Hello all... ok here is my problem. I have a 3yr old Arab gelding. Up until about 3 weeks ago my little guy has been doing great with riding, hanging out and just being a 3 year old. 3 weeks ago while out in our flat field my father and my dog were out in the field picking up poop when my three year old was walking over to them and got near our dog and proceeded to fall on top of him and fell all the way down hitting his face and landing on his side. He got up, the dog got up and everyone seemed fine with the exception of my old dog crying bc he just had a horse fall on him.

Next, last week while i was home i was watching the 2 boys playing in the field and when they were trotting around Gilly (my 3yr old fell down face first again) I ran outside and checked him he seemed ok nothing broken or bleeding and he was walking fine when he got up.

Now today I was riding my 3 yr old we went through our normal walking, trotting and cantering in both directions. Everything was fine until our last collected canter down the long side of the ring. Out of no where he falls on his face i come flying off and move out of the way while he falls all the way on his side. He gets right up and comes over to me to make sure im ok. I panic and I check him over his legs are ok, his face is ok sides are alright...there is no visible signs of pain, or hurt anywhere. I walk him around in hand and everythikng looks ok he is walking ok. So I hop back on just so he understands that it is not ok to throw mommy. (I have never come off this horse and I dont want him to know hey if i dont want a rider i can get them off) So i walk around I take him out of the ring and walk him on the grass and down the driveway and back. He feels ok maybe a little different but barely noticible.

He is due for his feet to be done at the end of July so I dont think it is his feet, i know he has a slight pigeon toe problem but we have been doing some really great riding and started jumping last month and no problems. He has had the last 2 weeks off Last week I was in Maine for training and this week my grandfather died. His legs look alright and have no heat.

Has anyone had this problem before or know of what might be causing him to fall down like this?

Thanks

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gilly1331, Jul. 07, 2005 05:12 AM

http://community.webshots.com/user/gilly1331

[cynthia-jay]

I've seen horses fall down from being unbalanced while picking up a hoof

As for the pigen toed conformation you need a complete evaluation by a qualified Farrier /Vet to check for a pinched nerve somewhere in this horse

That would be my guess
and check your saddle for fit as well

Untill you have the answer this horse is dangerous to ride

If he takes another fall with you on him you could be seriously hurt

Horses usually just don't fall down

be carefull while working around this horse untill you have determined the cause of this condition
as ever
Jay

[Rick Burten]

While there appear to be several issues with his hoof conformation, based solely on the information provided, this horse appears to have a neurological condition seperate and distinct from the hoof issues.

I would not ride or work this horse until a full evaluation has been done. EPM. West Nile, Lymes, etc, all must be ruled out. the feet do need some attention to balance and form but I don't know that I'd want anyone to get under a horse that falls over for no apparent reason.

Rick

[tipptoez]

I have to agree with Rick. His behavior sounds just like a friend's gelding who got EPM. She was lucky, vet picked it up right away and one treatment cycle with Marquis (~$1000) and no more problems. He has been fine for over a year now.

Definitely get the neurological diseases checked out ASAP. If one is present the sooner you find out and treat it the less likely permanent or extensive damage has been done.

Take Care, Denise

[Ronald Aalders]

I took a look at hoof pics. What I saw was a pair of front feet that where way more than a little misaligned. In fact before anyone starts suggesting the horse suffers from any neurological disorder, I may be wise to straighten out the feet first. (If at all possible...............)

With leg and feet conformation like that ANY horse is likely to fall, and thus be a safety hazard to itself and the rider.

I copied one of the pics I saw. Please excuse the way it's turned but for some mysterious reason the server of this site does not accept the pic in a normal position. Apperently for the server 280 x 680 is a lot different as far as server space is concerned than 680 x 280.............. Hey, what do I know I'm a shoer.



Ronald Aalders

[tipptoez]

Hi Ronald,

I am not a farrier and don't even play one on TV :D , so I can't argue with you about the poor hoof balance and conformational problems on this horse and how they may be contributing to gait and balance abnormalities.

What has me concerned is the sudden onset of the falling down problem, and just how it is described. The owner states the horse is plumb falling flat out on it's face, not tripping, stumbling, off stepping etc.

I looked at the photos first and yepper there are some hoof/conformation problems that even unexperienced "me" can see. But they look like they are long standing and didn't just happen recently. The falling down issue has begun in the last three weeks. I could be wrong (big understatement), but I would think that hoof imbalances as seen in this horse would have started to show up in gait abnormalities long before three weeks ago.

If you look at the first photo album at the site ...named DCA Gilligan "Gilly" it has four pages of photos of this horse at play over many months. The last page shows photos of him jumping that were taken on June 15 of this year. He didn't have a falling problem then and I would guess his feet looked pretty much the same at that time, as it was just a month ago. Based on the number of photos and what they show this owner obviously spends a great deal of time with her horse, he is an integral part of her family. Even if she is uneducated in recognizing hoof deformities, I think she would have noticed any tripping, stumbling falling issues if they were occurring prior to three weeks ago.

I live in an area where EPM is not supposed to occur, no opposums. The gelding who got it here had never left this area and was eating only local grown hay. None of the other three resident horses that lived with him got it. He developed the same type of sudden onset falling down. Not tripping or stumbling but flat out falling down like something knocked his legs right out from under him. One second he was trotting around the next he was instantaneously flat out on the ground. It was very distinctive and the way this owner is describing what her horse is doing sounds just too similar to what this gelding did.

Our vet had seen one other case of EPM that was in a horse that had just come in from OK, where EPM is known to occur. Having seen it before, she picked it up in my friends gelding right away. Did some tests running a hoof pick lightly down meridians on the horses body looking for reactions. She lightly pulled his tail and he almost fell over on her. Based on the neuro exam she suspected EPM and drew blood, came back positive. Horse then had a confirmatory spinal tap, which was also positive. This horse was lucky in that he was diagnosed within two weeks of developing symptoms and treated early with the best treatment available. He recovered 100 percent and is now competing in WP and doing well.

This vet now has another EPM case. She suspected EPM as soon as the horse (one of her own)started showing symptoms. Sent blood work and it came back negative. They observed the horse for another month and looked at other possible causes. When he kept getting progressively worse she sent another EPM sample and this time it came back positive. This horse has gone through two full 28 day courses of Marquis and is still deteriorating. Long term prognosis is poor. Unfortunate for a young, very high dollar, once promising cutting horse. Basically, she caught it too early, before blood titers became positive and was thrown off course in her diagnostics. The extra month and a half wait before treatment caused a lot more damage to this horse's spinal cord.

In my very non-professional opinion, while the horse in question in this thread obviously has some serious hoof/conformation issues, to assume they are the problem with the sudden onset falling issue I think would be detrimental to the horse. Having a simple neuro exam done and some blood tests if the exam warrants further investigations is worth the time and expense. If it is a neurological disease such as EPM, waiting to see if corrective trimming helps the problem could be a death sentence for this horse in the long run. As an owner, I would get professional hoof help right away but I would also rule out neurological disorders as well. But then again, I am one who would rather spend the money and be extra cautious than take the wait and see approach. I have learned the hard way that the wait and see approach can spell disaster in some cases.

JMO, Denise

[Jeanie Connors]

I have to agree with Ronald; my first impression seeing the pictures was "Holy mackeral those are some serious pigeon toes!". At three years old, though, trying to correct this imbalance could be very stressful on those legs.

Sudden falling while moving, though, really sounds to me, personally, like he's catching a foot on his opposite leg and tripping *himself*. When he's fallen, was he going in a particular direction each time, or at a particular gait? If you can, maybe try getting a video of him...have someone lunge him at each gait, and try to get both side and particularly front views of how he's moving at each gait. Then analyze the video to see if there are any clues there.

Having a vet check for any disease would also be a good idea, I think. As far as the trim goes, it looks decent, though his toes do look a little long still, as do his heels. Keeping his feet well trimmed, and trimming each one individually according to what it "tells you" can also help him handle his conformation as best he can :) .