Diagnosed by x-ray with navicular

[David Gill]

Diagnosed by x-ray with navicular

This is the story about ‘Sid’, a horse owned by a client.


‘Sid’ is a 15yr old horse, retired from hunting after the 2007 / 2008 season because of intermittent lameness (undiagnosed)

Started slow-work September 2009 and worked sound, right through the winter (just hacking).

Intermittent lameness, at the trot, started again when the ground became hard.
He then became really lame at walk and trot. He was diagnosed by x-ray with navicular.


Can anyone pass comment?
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/album.php?albumid=307

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2363
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2361
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2359
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2357

[Phil Armitage]

Hi David

Are the x-rays the only diagnosis tool? What did the Vet see?

[blinddogfarrier]

and if he did see anything, how did he see it?

[bumfoot SHOER]

Diagnosed by x-ray with navicular

This is the story about ‘Sid’, a horse owned by a client.


‘Sid’ is a 15yr old horse, retired from hunting after the 2007 / 2008 season because of intermittent lameness (undiagnosed)

Started slow-work September 2009 and worked sound, right through the winter (just hacking).

Intermittent lameness, at the trot, started again when the ground became hard.
He then became really lame at walk and trot. He was diagnosed by x-ray with navicular.


Can anyone pass comment?
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/album.php?albumid=307

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2363
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2361
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2359
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=307&pictureid=2357
david the sad thing i have found with a nev horse is not one shoeing package works the same on these horses i have used a alu wedge shoe or a bar shoe with bar wedges or i have used egg bar shoes with wedges ya just got to play with it a bit to get your horse were ya need him to be hope that helped ya some bryan e

[blinddogfarrier]

With this series of radiographs I would have to question, at least in my mind if this was a "true navicular" horse??? Some ringbone present on p2, non articulating (best guesstimate), perhaps dipj issues, no doubt the views we do see of the distal sesamoid are not pretty (ie. symmetrical) but I don't think its definitive...JMO. I would focus on HPA, plenty of heel support, IM in the rear third.

[blinddogfarrier]

Went back and looked at lateral flick again, P3 is maybe a little flat, Flex the coffin joint with a wedge to align the bony column and raise the solar angle of the coffin bone. This might help with dipj inflammation. Just what I would try, what's everybody else think? Great case, David!

[David Gill]

Hi guys, thanks for taking the trouble to look at this posting.

I am seeing Mary today and I will pass on your remarks.

To be quite honest I’m not sure if I did the x-rays justice.
I scanned them in from my office machine using a backlight.
How do you guys copy x-rays to appear on this forum?

With regard to x-rays, in my own experience, which spans almost 40yrs, we working farriers rarely even get a glimpse of one, whereas some of the guys on this forum appear to have a whole library of examples…it always makes me feel like a country bumpkin!

Best regards, David

[Jaye Perry]

David Gill.....To be quite honest I’m not sure if I did the x-rays justice.
I scanned them in from my office machine using a backlight.
.....


Used to do the same David. Advent of digital makes it easier.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/explosion.jpg

Looks like your horse has a mile or two on the legs and feet. Good thing the soft ground youse guys have over there have kept the pedal bones in good shape; not much pedal osteoitis; per the solar foramen of P3. The other changes, well, Good Luck!

[Ronald Aalders]

A suggestion.



Ronald Aalders

[Gary Hill]

OK Ron help me understand the trim you would put on the horse with this shoe. I see the foot surface of the shoe is nannered along with the ground of the shoe. I thought you just nannered the ground side?

[Ronald Aalders]

Well if I use a commercially available banana shoe, they have a level foot side and a curved ground side. Usually I make my own banana shoes, either with a template or without. When you curve a shoe banana wise, there's bound to be a curved foot side and a curved ground side. No big deal, just leave a tad extra foot when trimming to accomodate rasping or burning in of the roll.


Ronald Aalders

[Gary Hill]

Do you have a steel shoe shaped for a burn or do you rely on your rasp more?

[Jake Whitman]

Well if I use a commercially available banana shoe, they have a level foot side and a curved ground side. Usually I make my own banana shoes, either with a template or without. When you curve a shoe banana wise, there's bound to be a curved foot side and a curved ground side. No big deal, just leave a tad extra foot when trimming to accomodate rasping or burning in of the roll.


Ronald AaldersRon , is there any more benifit, to the foot being ,"Bananad" , than just the shoe?? I have wondered about this alot. The horses that have pathologies that a banana shoe may be beneficial, that i have seen, had a lack of profusion of blood flow, and had a compromised amount of depth of sole, around the leading edge of the coffin bone, I just don't see how this application makes a difference??

[Ronald Aalders]

Jake you need to think of the hoofcapsule as a "follower" and the coffin bone as the "leader". It's not the hoofcapsule that dictates movement, it's the coffin bone moving and taking the hoofcapsule along with it. If you get that concept in your head the rest is easy. The distance from the center of articulation of the coffin joint to the spot where breakover actually occurs is a lever. (in fact a natural lever). When we reduce that lever breakover is easier. That concept you know. But why is it easier? Simply because the lever shortens that's why. So with a breakover spot at the COA the amount of strain on the coffin bone persuading the hoofcapsule to follow is that much less. Especially at the moment it counts, from a loaded position to heel lift. After that the coffin joint flexes reducing the forces needed for (further) breakover exponentially anyway.

See my foot in the wooden shoe. When your not used to a wooden shoe the top of your foot is going to hurt when you walk in them. That's because the shoe follows where my foot leads. Exactly the same concept as the coffin bone in the hoofcapsule.

So by reducing breakover forces there is less strain within the hoofcapsule. I think this improves bloodflow to the circumflex vessels underneath the coffin bone thus allowing the sole pappillea to generate that much more sole tubules. Less strain also reduces forces acting on the hoofwall so a banana (or any other way of reducing that breakover lever) also improves the quality of the hoofcapsule simply because of less wear and tear needed to breakover.


Ronald Aalders

[Jake Whitman]

Jake you need to think of the hoofcapsule as a "follower" and the coffin bone as the "leader". It's not the hoofcapsule that dictates movement, it's the coffin bone moving and taking the hoofcapsule along with it. If you get that concept in your head the rest is easy. The distance from the center of articulation of the coffin joint to the spot where breakover actually occurs is a lever. (in fact a natural lever). When we reduce that lever breakover is easier. That concept you know. But why is it easier? Simply because the lever shortens that's why. So with a breakover spot at the COA the amount of strain on the coffin bone persuading the hoofcapsule to follow is that much less. Especially at the moment it counts, from a loaded position to heel lift. After that the coffin joint flexes reducing the forces needed for (further) breakover exponentially anyway.

See my foot in the wooden shoe. When your not used to a wooden shoe the top of your foot is going to hurt when you walk in them. That's because the shoe follows where my foot leads. Exactly the same concept as the coffin bone in the hoofcapsule.

So by reducing breakover forces there is less strain within the hoofcapsule. I think this improves bloodflow to the circumflex vessels underneath the coffin bone thus allowing the sole pappillea to generate that much more sole tubules. Less strain also reduces forces acting on the hoofwall so a banana (or any other way of reducing that breakover lever) also improves the quality of the hoofcapsule simply because of less wear and tear needed to breakover.


Ronald Aalders Thanks , for your response, Ron, I will Definatley have to sleep, and think about this, I have alot of Questions about It. I want to get with Rick R, at some point , to learn what you have. I just cannot wrap my mind -around , how an un-level trimmed , hoof, and an unlevel , shoe , will gain sole-depth?? Expecially when the profusion of blood , has already been compromised. Thanks again Ron, You are making me seek , out more knowledge, and for that , I am gratefull!

[Ronald Aalders]

Thanks , for your response, Ron, I will Definatley have to sleep, and think about this, I have alot of Questions about It. I want to get with Rick R, at some point , to learn what you have. I just cannot wrap my mind -around , how an un-level trimmed , hoof, and an unlevel , shoe , will gain sole-depth?? Expecially when the profusion of blood , has already been compromised. Thanks again Ron, You are making me seek , out more knowledge, and for that , I am gratefull!


Watch it its addictive! :D

As to the trim, the trim is normal, there is no banana trim. It is just the shape of the shoe. When making banana shoes from regular shoes like I do in most cases you end up with a curved ground side and a curved foot side. In those cases you need to burn or rasp the shoe in the foot. But there are a lot of banana shoes commercially available that have a level foot side and a curved ground side. Application of those shoes is just like any other. Center it around the COA, making sure the belly of the roll is directly below the COA. With a curved foot side it appaers the foot is trimmed to suit the banana roll. Not true. In fact you could fit a curved foot side banana to a level foot and fill the middle with Equilox of whatever. On short footed horses I've been known to do just that.


Ronald Aalders

[Phil Armitage]

Hi Ron

How we think about the hoof capsule mechanically, anatomically and as a protective supportive structure depends on what each individual horse and what the horse does for a living. Horses like people and all other life on the planet range from very athletic to very unathletic. I have seen some very athletic horses never miss a step or take a lame step with feet that most would consider way out of balance. Man has done a very good job with horses feet just maintaining a flat foot. Along with traditional shoeing principles I learned and tried NB principles for many years and now have several years combined riding and shoeing experience in a wide range of variables. What I have learned is not one set of principles will work for all horses and the wide range of variables they deal with. A lot of good shoeing ideas and principles, however they are tools for when you need them and the challenge is figuring out when it is appropriate.

I'm not sure if we can only think of the hoof capsule as a follower, it obviously does more than follow. In my mind it is also a major tool for the horse to get around on many variables nature and man puts in front of them. An adaptive structure that never ceases to amaze me. Just one example based on my experience, I would not feel to confident riding up the mountains in Montana on horseback with banana shoes, want to talk about a lever. Then on the way down the mechanics and needs are different. Wrangling all the horses back on grass and highway presented different needs. I had the privilege and honor doing this many years ago on a ranch in Montana, every horse was traditionally shod flat. The stamina and conditioning of these horses taught me how to spot a horse that is out of shape. Kind of like farriers, take a few days off and you feel it. :) Which we could start a whole new thread on conditioning, riding ability, balance rhythm and feel. How this affects the soundness of a horse.