Rotated sideways?

[caballus]

Anyone have exp. w/rotation of the P3 *sideways* vs. downwards? What was the cause? What was the treatment for this? What was the prognosis and the outcome? Would you treat the same way again? If not, why not? If so, why? Any other comments on sideways rotation?

Thanks.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

If you mean the coffin bone disconecting and then dropping more on one side of the foot than the other, it does happen sometimes.
I have found it in founders where the horse was conformationaly very crooked to begin with..seriously knock kneed toe out ,or pigeon toed for example. They are much more difficult to get aligned media laterally again. You have to keep trimming to level the bone. Xrays are more helpful in the very beginning on these than following the (now damaged) sole plane . Eventually (months)the sole seems to stay even again under the bone and can be trusted to trim, but not in the first weeks or months after the initial rotation.
Patty

[caballus]

Thank you for the info. More xrays will be taken next week. Initial ones were taken 3 weeks ago but vet said they weren't clear. It is his *gut* feeling that this horse has rotated sideways. But there are also other issues with the spine being out of whack and the pelvis twisted, too. So ... its a whole ball of wax that needs to be sorted through.

The interesting thing about this particular "founder" (as Dx by vet) is that there has been no heat, no bounding pulse, no other outward signs or symptoms of "founder" other than extreme lameness and the eggshell walking BUT ... in the last few days the horse has been toe walking instead of heel walking. Plus, the hooves were LTLH big time. Slowly being corrected. Went to trim yesterday (4 week trimming) and decided to let the horse 'rest' for a couple more weeks; no trim ... was evidently more comfie that has been for awhile. Don't mind waiting so much except that its almost 100 mi. one way to get to the horse to begin with! Oh well ... this is a chronic horse rescue. Its been out of 'work' for several years due to annual foundering. This is a bit different this time, tho so is a bit of a mystery. Same Dr. tending as has for the last few years.

--Gwen

[calshoer]

Gwen you wil find that a lot of the chronic founders that are metabolically caued (IR or cushings horses) do not exibit the classic laminitis symptomns..they lack the big pulse, heat in the foot and often they do not even hoof test sore over the toe. In fact a few have gotten initially misdiagnosed as navicular because the are more sore over the center of the frog .This may be because they are sinking rather than rotating and the impar ligament is taking the brunt.

. Here are some radiographic giveaways that this may be the issue .....noticeable distal descent of a half inch or more as measured from the hairline to top of the extensor process of P3, and abnormally thick dorsal hoofwall. near the top of the bone, above the flare in the wall (more than 19mm from outer surface to surface of P3 on Xray) .

As well there may be a distinctive 'crease' in the hoof wall near the coronary band, but that crease may be located above the extensor process of P3.

Some horses with really sunk P3's and that crease in the wall DO go up on their toes, rather than wanting to load on the heels. This is likely because they are VERY sore over the extensor process of P3 (more sore than the rest ofthe foot) as it is getting compresed by the top of the hoofwall pinching in above it.
If you flex the foot and the horse reacts violently, that is probably the cause. And when they load the frog it pushes the extensor process into the band of constricted hoofwall above it.

These are candidates for a dorsal wall 'release', something that should not be done without affixing support under and around the foot to prevent the capsule from spreading out and flattening .

Possibly a horizonatal grooving (originally presented by Dave Ferguson years ago ) would be enough and something you could try barefoot. However in my experience horizontal grooving always has collapsed together in a few days and has to be redone over and over until you end up with a full resection anyway, again not to be done wihout holding the capsule together mechanically somehow.
Patty

[caballus]

Gwen you wil find that a lot of the chronic founders that are metabolically caued (IR or cushings horses) do not exibit the classic laminitis symptomns..they lack the big pulse, heat in the foot and often they do not even hoof test sore over the toe. In fact a few have gotten initially misdiagnosed as navicular because the are more sore over the center of the frog .This may be because they are sinking rather than rotating and the impar ligament is taking the brunt.

Well, all tests have come back negative for IR, Cushings, CBC is all within normal ranges ... etc. has had just about every test thinkable. All negative.
Two others (not connected at all with the original horse I posted), however, have done just what you describe - initially Dx as Navicular but quite apparently sore with strong pulses and heat! Tested not sore at toe but most definitely in the center frog area. I trimmed and treated as "founder" and lo and behold, they're coming round. Have another one to see this afternoon - same symptoms; same farrier as the other two. Then there are another 3 that are supposedly "Navicular" ... again, same farrier. I'll assess them today and see what's up. That's 6, now, in the span of 4 weeks ... ackkkkk! Same two owners for all (except the first one I asked about) and same farrier.

Some horses with really sunk P3's and that crease in the wall DO go up on their toes, rather than wanting to load on the heels. This is likely because they are VERY sore over the extensor process of P3 (more sore than the rest ofthe foot) as it is getting compresed by the top of the hoofwall pinching in above it.

The horse I originally posted does not have the crease or the hollow at the coronary; the hoof wall is the same angle as the periople angle. The hooves are almost back to "normal" shape (remember ... was being trimmed for LTLH). So there are no visible signs of foundering or rotation.

Possibly a horizonatal grooving (originally presented by Dave Ferguson years ago ) would be enough and something you could try barefoot.

Not something with which I feel comfortable so that's not going to happen as long as I'm treating the horse(s). I am familiar with and understand the theory behind the horizontal grooving but have never done it so would not attempt to do that myself nor am I personally comfortable with the validity of the need for it.

Thanks for the input.

-- Gwen

[Ronald Aalders]

Not something with which I feel comfortable so that's not going to happen as long as I'm treating the horse(s). I am familiar with and understand the theory behind the horizontal grooving but have never done it so would not attempt to do that myself nor am I personally comfortable with the validity of the need for it.
-- Gwen

Very wise. I never really understood the necessity of weakening the hoofcapsule by grooving it.

In some exceptional cases it may be a valid treatment, but I doubt even that. As Patty said you'll find yourself with a grooving that needs redoing over and over until you preformed a resection in stages.


Ronald Aalders

[mwmyersdvm]

If grooving is indicated, I have had spectacular results with it.
The main problem I use it for is when the hoof capsule appears to be too small below growth that is expanding from the coronet band. Grooving at this juncture will free this new growth and in many cases has relieved discomfort.

[calshoer]

Dr.Myers, how do you prevent the single horizontal groove from collapsing together again? That has been my experience, even with the dorsal wall unloaded in the toe area.
The dorsal wall "release" ,a combination of a horizontal groove AND vertical grooves creating a disconnected "patch" of wall that is left in place has shown good promise.
I am sure open to any suggestions on those badly sunken horses who go up on their toes.
Patty

[Forgewizard]

I have only done the horizontal grooving on one foundered pony that had excessively high heels. After trimming to promote easier breakover and encourage a more "normal" appearance to the lumpy sole, I rasped two groves medially and laterally on each fore hoof at the quarters about a hlf inch down from the coronet band. As the pony stood there I could actually SEE the compression of these groved areas! I did not groove so far as to draw blood, nor through the white line. I only grooved about 2/3 thickness of the wall.

The owner called me a couple days later to say that the pont who had previously been laying down alot, was now traveling around the entire pasture! On my return visit the pony heard my truck and actually galloped up to me me! The owner was tearfully amazed!

Now, I am not so sure that the pony wouldn't have done just the same if I had just trimmed all the cruddy foot the previous farriers had left and I had NOT done the grooving. But I did notice that the horrible jamming of the coronet at the heels and quarters was gone!