Soggy feet

[TheBig Deal]

My farrier tells me my horses feet are wet which is resulting in chunking , cracking and fraying. The chunks are out of the side walls, the fraying near clips and cracks in one hoof toe area. I have been fighting this condition since Spring and I am wondering if I am going down the right path. The farrier had me sealing the nail holes and chuncks with wood putty. I've done this for three months and no positive results.
I've owned this horse for 8 months and when he came to me his feet on a scale of 1-10 were a 9.5 according to the vet. I sure liked the way they looked...
Today they are a total mess...he's got about 2 3/4 inches of ringed growth which made me think it was something I was feeding him or not feeding him. Took him off daily wormer checked with prior owners who didn't have him on any suppliments. Conditions in the Spring were very wet and the horse was probably never turned out before I got him which could have explained the initial condition but conditions are dry now, we take care not to soak his feet when bathing or hosing him off and they don't look any better.
I have put him on Botine, he gets 12% sweet feed, good (sometimes decent) grass hay. He hasn't been lame at all.
Ideas?

[cynthia-jay]

an iodine based hoof product or a betadine wash and rinse may dry them out a bit. Or a clorox and water rinse may also help.

Sounds like enviromentals are playing havoc with your horses hooves here and you may have a bit of a balance problem as well as he adjust to a new farrier .
good luck,
as ever,
Jay ;)

[danverschild]

Moisture imbalances and overly hydrated hooves are a nightmare! I would suggest that you re-post your question on the Keratex forum (on this site) and review the information on their pages.

Although it sounds as if your farrier has identified the problem, I think the solutions s/he's offering aren't the most productive way of resolving the problem. Check out the Keratex site, and see what using Keratex Hoof Hardener will do...

[TheBig Deal]

Thank you and I will check out the other information!
:p

[Gary Hill]

I would hot fit some wide web shoes to the feet of this horse. That will help seal out the excess moisture. Then use the hoof products to help harden the hoof walls. Good Luck! Gary

[shannonw]

I highley recommend Keratex hoof hardener - my horse's feet were falling to pieces last spring, he lives on pasture 24/7 with a run in shed in North Carolina - he could not keep shoes on any of his four feet. I started using Keratex in March and by May/June he was holding his shoes. The seemingly unstoppable deteoration stopped. Its expensive, but less expensive than the alternative of having the horse shoer out every week!

[caballus]

You might try getting the toes back a bit and making sure the hoof wall is rasped level with the sole callous. Generally, hooves that chip and all are simply self-trimming themselves. If the wall is left higher than the sole callous it reaps the same effect as if you walked on fingernails or toenails that are longer than the end of your finger. With the horse's weight bearing down on the wall, the wall will pull away from the laminae due to the leverages and force. Here is a photo of walls that are correctly trimmed:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/varioustrims2C.jpg
This hoof shows long walls that are becoming separated from sole.

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/varioustrims2D.jpg
This photo shows the same hoof trimmed correctly with the walls down to the same level as the sole callous.

I would also suggest that you have a "mustang roll" done on the trimmed hooves. This, too, will help prevent chipping and cracks.
--caballus

[Rick Burten]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/varioustrims2D.jpg
This photo shows the same hoof trimmed correctly with the walls down to the same level as the sole callous.
.
--caballus

I don't want to start an argument here, but there are some things about this trim that are a bit disconcerting to me. Perhaps some, or all of them are related to the angle the photo was taken. Quien sabe?

The heel bulb on the right side appears pushed up.

The back of the frog on the right side has been trimmed asymetrical to the left side(perhaps over pared a bit?)

The heel lengths are not equal and are still a bit forward of where I think they should be. This decreased both heel area and support and can lend itself to causing the heels to further run forward or become underslung or crushed.

The toe has been given an unequal radius(perhaps intentionally?) with the right side of the toe being rolled off in such a manner and the left side of the toe being left fuller such that it could create a torque action to the hoof.

The hoof itself is asymetrical which may be the result of a conformation inadequacy or some other factor(s).

This appears to be a right front. Am I correct?

Rick

[Phil Armitage]

I also highly recommend Keratex, I started many of my clients on it, we have had a wet spring and summer and winter is not any better. Keratex is working very well. Hot fitting wide web shoes is also a good idea. The Keratex site has great information.

[caballus]

Hi Rick ... your observations skills are excellent! Brief background on this horse: a rescue. Was shod with "corrective shoes" but given up as "hopeless navicular". New owner got him, he (the horse) pulled one shoe and the owner took off the other one. This was a "first" trim. You are correct in noticing the unequal bulbs (the pushed up right one indicating that the heel on this side was longer than the other and creating more pressure on this side of the hoof). Notice the "before trim" shot -- this was immediately after removing the shoe. The shoe, btw, was twisted so that this side was about 1/2" off the level plane than the other. You can see in the before shot the separation and the rot by the heel that was left longer. The heel lengths trimmed are not equal because I wanted to trim so the hoof would be on a level plane and to do so meant that one heel was trimmed less than the other. (refer to the observation you made about one bulb being more protruding than the other)
The heels *are* still more forward than they should be but I took the heels back as far as I could on this first trim without causing more soreness than the horse was already experiencing. They were already well on their way to being underslung and well forward of where the center of weight bearing should be.

The toe actually is pretty much right on the money as to radius. If you look carefully for the (true) apex of the frog you'll see that it is off to the side from the frog tissue itself. The frog had been trimmed or grown to one side.

The hoof, itself, is assymetrical, yes ... but as I said the entire shoe was twisted and warped. Wouldn't this have something to do with the way the hoof was growing? (and how it was trimmed prior to the shoe being applied?) but will be corrected over the next 6 months or so.

If you also notice, according to Gene's measurements this hoof was way off in terms of dividing it in 3rd's. The toe is still way too long. However, this is remediated over time with this particular horse and hooves. The breakover is still way too forward of the (true) apex.

Because this horse was some distance from me (100 Miles), I was called to do the first corrective trim and the other trims were to be done by a trimmer more local to the horse. I will be receiving photos of subsequent trim this weekend, I believe. It will be interesting to see how they are. BTW, this horse was saddled up and taken for a trail ride after the trim with no indication of unsoundness (i.e. hopeless navicular) and none since according to his rescue owner. So, good indication that he's well on the mend and hopefully will continue to be sound for many years (he's only 9 years old). His "testimony" is on http://www.barefoottrim.com under "Services" then "Testimonies". His name is "Aiden". That gives a few more details about him.

--caballus

[Jason Maki]

Cab,
That twist is a sheared heel! The torque in the frog and the assymetrical toe is a result of twist. The medial heel and the cartilage it is connected to is displaced proximaly from the bridge to the bulb. The lateral to quarter, though not jammed to the extent of the medial heel, has compressed( the horn is a straw filled with a straw packed with gell), causing a hump in the hairline and a thickening in the whiteline. When presented with a foot like this, I will do the sole work, and nip the medial heel from bridge to buttress to the exact level of the sole, all the way back to the wide point, then nip from the midline of the toe lateral to the bridge. Set the foot down. It is only bearing on the medial "toe quarter" and lateral heel. Go to the opposite front foot and pick it up, forcing the horse to load the twisted foot. Have the animal standing on solid concrete, or a board if concrete is not available. The displaced heel and toe quarter will descend to bearing or farther before your eyes! I swear! Dress the flairs to straight. Then trim the foot to level with the plane of PIII. Often times, the lateral heel only needs rubbed back a little. Bring your bars to straight from the seet of corn to ducketts dot. I would also bring the lines of the frog on the lateral side back to cneter by removing the rolled top. If the foot keeps descending in the medial heel and lateral quarter, roll the wall to nonbearing in those areas. When you come back in six weeks, most if not all of the shear will be ameliorated.
I will use a flat shoe, nail behind the wide on the medial side and the front three on the lateral, this helps suck down the diplaced horn and cartilage and protect the damaged laminae. I have repaired hundreds without shoes, though!
This is a good picture of a syndrome I have tried to explain without pictures for a long time. Thanks for the opportunity! Really! :D
Jason Maki

[caballus]

I'm glad I was of help to you, Jason! *LOL* I actually see ALOT of this and have been doing pretty much what you described to get the hoof back in balance. What's the deal with this, anyway? Why am I seeing so many "sheared heels" ??? It annoys me, to say the least.

Here is an article on Sheared Heels: http://www.equipodiatry.com/shrheel.htm

Has some "familiar" photos ... meaning this is what I see alot. Its too bad. And yes -- one can see the hoof correct itself almost before your eyes! It is pretty amazing.

It will be interesting to see the photos of the hoof I posted when they come in. As I said, I did the initial trim; someone closer to the horse/stable continued to maintain the trim every 4 weeks. So, it'll be a couple of trims-worth (we trim monthly - every 4 weeks) I'll post when I get them.

I keep photo records of each client. From the intial exam to each trim. This way I can not only see what I started with but it also allows me to see where I need to go with a particular hoof. Digital cameras are pretty good except that the depth perception is not too keen.

--caballus

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=caballus]Hi Rick ... your observations skills are excellent!

Thanks! And if you think those are excellent, you should see me under the horse. :D

>The toe actually is pretty much right on the money as to radius. If you look carefully for the (true) apex of the frog you'll see that it is off to the side from the frog tissue itself. The frog had been trimmed or grown to one side.

The problem is that by leaving that left side of the wall the way it is, a "corner" is created that will affect how the foot leaves the ground. Also, the longer toe length on that side affects breakover, increases the strain to one part of the toe, and also contributes to a changed flight pattern as the hoof leaves the ground. Now, if that was done for a purpose after having taken all the factors into consideration, that is one thing. If those factors and their effects were not considered, then that is something entirely different.

>The hoof, itself, is assymetrical, yes ... but as I said the entire shoe was twisted and warped. Wouldn't this have something to do with the way the hoof was growing? (and how it was trimmed prior to the shoe being applied?)

The way the shoe was applied will indeed affect the hoof. But we also have to consider the conformation of the horse, particularly the lower limbs. Trimming too affects the way the hoof will grow(probably more than the shoe does).

Rick

[caballus]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/horseshoes-rick1.jpg

Hey Rick ... I went and straightened out the photo so we could look at it from a true angle. I also blocked off the hoof into sections. Where I marked the X is to what you are referring, correct with regard to the assymetric "corner" that was left? Good eye! (And that's why I like to take photos cause it will pinpoint what I've missed without delusions.) And, although this hoof looks pretty well "in sync", in reality, it should have way less toe so that, as Gene Ovnicek advocates and to which I try to adhere, 2/3rds of the hoof should be behind the widest part of the hoof with a breakover just about a thumb's width in front of the true apex. With this initial trim, I did not get that. I realize that I can get obsessive during a trim so have actually tried hard NOT to obsess and expect "perfection". I also try not to do TOO much during an initial trim after removing shoes and prefer to minimally get some semblence of balance and levelness and then watch to see how the horse is going to move and wear during the next 4 weeks or so. However, if this area is not addressed then I will expect to see some cracking in the toe from the pressure in the set of photos I'm expecting to receive.
Now, in doing this had I gone back to do the second trim, I would have addressed these matters. It will be interesting to see what the local trimmer has done.

--caballus

[Jason Maki]

Cab,
The lines you have drawn clearly show the displacement of the medial (or right) heel bulb. One thing that has to be remembered, the foot is three dimensional.It moves and functions on three planes. Your X also marks the exact spot where the wall will compress and the laminae will stretch with a sheared heel! Good luck, and post the next trim if you would. Inquiring minds want to know! :p
Thanks,
Jason

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=caballus]http://www.barefoottrim.com/horseshoes-rick1.jpg

>Hey Rick ... I went and straightened out the photo so we could look at it from a true angle. I also blocked off the hoof into sections. Where I marked the X is to what you are referring, correct with regard to the assymetric "corner" that was left? Good eye! (And that's why I like to take photos cause it will pinpoint what I've missed without delusions.)

That was one corner, but there is another one to the right of the line you drew, right where you start to radius the toe wall. Both of these will have a torqueing effect but I think the one more mid-line will have the most.

> And, although this hoof looks pretty well "in sync", in reality, it should have way less toe so that, as Gene Ovnicek advocates and to which I try to adhere, 2/3rds of the hoof should be behind the widest part of the hoof with a breakover just about a thumb's width in front of the true apex. With this initial trim, I did not get that. I realize that I can get obsessive during a trim so have actually tried hard NOT to obsess and expect "perfection". I also try not to do TOO much during an initial trim after removing shoes and prefer to minimally get some semblence of balance and levelness and then watch to see how the horse is going to move and wear during the next 4 weeks or so. However, if this area is not addressed then I will expect to see some cracking in the toe from the pressure in the set of photos I'm expecting to receive.
Now, in doing this had I gone back to do the second trim, I would have addressed these matters. It will be interesting to see what the local trimmer has done.

If you had pulled those heels back a bit more that would have helped re-establish the ratio. Along with that, instead of first trimming that toe wall and then radiusing it, if you had just started a long roll of only a few 5-8 degrees or so, your proportions would have changed dramatically. Another way to "attack" the toe issue would have been to work it from the top only, without nipping first. Then, once you had the rocker in the toe, you could have worked from the bottom. Neither of these two approaches, done correctly should make the horse sore as you are conserving all the sole anterior to the apex of the frog.

Rick

[old heller]

gosh,let the horse live a few days.he or she cant give ya what he aint got. worth $.02

[caballus]

Morning, Jason! *S*

Absolutely -- the hoof is 3 dimensional and it only makes sense that with a sheared heel that the opposite toe would be affected as its all twisted.

As I view a hoof I am pretty much able to "see" what's going on from the outside-in. In my minds eye I have "photos" of dissected hooves that I can recall so I can follow angles, pressure points, etc. logically throughout the hoof as I see the horse move and view the results in the exterior of the hooves, themselves. (Sort of like a photographic memory, I guess. I sometimes "re-read" texts in my mind when I need to recall information.)

Morning to you, too, Rick! *S*

Godfry -- you've got a good eye. Yes -- I didn't see that little nookie before but now I do. Thanks! But, in my obsessiveness that I could get caught up in, will that really cause THAT much damage? Or, do you think that since this horse is ridden regularly on gravel, rocks and hard ground that the hoof might correct this itself? We'll see in the forthcoming photos. (Gosh I do wish they'd hurry up and get here!)

Another way to "attack" the toe issue would have been to work it from the top only, without nipping first. Then, once you had the rocker in the toe, you could have worked from the bottom. Neither of these two approaches, done correctly should make the horse sore as you are conserving all the sole anterior to the apex of the frog.

Yeah, actually I've been doing the tops first lately to see the differences. I use the nippers more because its easier for me to get the walls down where they belong. I could rasp forever and a day, it seems -- I don't have the strength that you "guys" do!! So, the nippers have been a great tool for me instead of having to rasp forever. And yes -- I try not to touch much of the soles at all on hooves. Especially after removing shoes cause usually there's not much left. (One TB who was very sore (prior to removing the shoes, even) was xrayed and it showed just 3 mm !!!! of sole left! No wonder the poor horse was sore! He's fine, now, after 4 months of sole growing. "Navicular" is gone and he's doing well on all sorts of terrain.)

Thanks, Rick, for the tips and comments.

caballus

[cynthia-jay]

Hi Caballus
s the hoof in the photo close to acheiving a 30 degree hairline?
Just currious
If during your trimming methods do you try to acheive this on all horses
Since all these individuals use different methods to gage the anles
best as always
Jay

[caballus]

Morning Jay.

What I use to gauge the angles is first the angle of the new growth at the periople. That tells me where the fresh, new growth wants to go. Then I "generally" eyeball the hairline. I sort of use a 30* but it depends on the hoof on which I'm working. I feel that if every horse were to be forced toa 30* hairline each and every time then there'd be alot of discomfort and broken axis' . To me that's like saying everyone wears a size 7B shoe. (humans) ... but into this equation I also look at the length of the toe, the thickness of the toe and sole, the condition of the frog ... well, the whole gamut.

--caballus

[TheBig Deal]

I'm still battling problem feet! :( I can't say soggy feet anymore because I doubt this horses feet could be considered soggy. He's in a different facility where he's put on about 125 pounds and looks fit an healthy. He didn't look bad to me until I saw what the extra 125 pounds did for his appearance. He's been off the daily wormer, on Super Biotin and Rice oil and now I'm having a peeling problem! The hoof was almost rebuilt with all the filler the farrier used and what is happening is that the hoof wall is peeling where the filler ends and hoof begins.

I've been refered to a Wayne Smith Jr in the Northern NJ area by the new facilities Farrier. I've been unable to locate him if any one knows of Wayne or his contact information, I'd appreciate it. I thought I found him but the Wayne SMith I found was a Plumber who was nice enough to call me back and let me know I contacted the wrong person. My former farrier can't come out to the new facility for one horse, it is out of his area...

[Phil Armitage]

Your not going to solve the feet problem in that short of time especially if they were poor quality horn. It takes at least 3 to 6 months just to get good hoof for nailing and at least a year to get goot hoof at the ground surface because this is how long it takes to grow hoof. I do not like the hoof suplements that people come up with on there owne, you can over do biotin, I recommend you use something like Farriers Formula where each ingrediant is tested and at the correct levels. I also would be carefull how fast they are adding wieght to your horse, great way to cause founder. To many barns and trainers think they know what there doing and there methods are old school and have no scientific basis. Nobody likes problems with there horse and it can get frustrating, find a good farrier and vet, don't let too many hands get into the pot and take it slow.

[TheBig Deal]

Phil, I thought I replied long ago...sorry.
I've been at this for almost for almost 3/4 of a year and I think I have another year to go. I've got him now pretty much inside, the poor thing, I can't risk those feet in this snow. THe fraying is what concerns me.... Now the balance of keeping the hoof dry enough but not so dry it cracks is the tricky part.
My theory is that this horses feet were not capable of standing up to some enviormental condition he was living in....what it was I can't pin point. My gut tells me daily wormer and wet pens did a number on this horse and it may not be the wormer internally caused a problem, but what is left of the wormer when it gets deposited right back into wet pens.