Official Statement from the BWFA on Farrier Licensing

[BWFA Headquarters]

AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE BWFA BOARD OF DIRECTORS;

Concerning proposed Farrier Licensing, Regulating Horseshoeing Schools in the United States and the proposals made by AFA task forces and their committees;

#1 The BWFA Board of Directors do not support farrier licensing.

#2 The BWFA Board of Directors do not want to regulate horseshoeing schools in the United States.

#3 The BWFA Board of Directors will not recognize small self appointed committees.

The BWFA board members feel issues of such magnitude should not be discussed behind closed doors. We feel these issues should be examined and voted on by the entire farrier industry out in the open with the majority of farriers, farrier vendors, farrier schools and with the large population of farriers who do not belong to farrier associations. They should all have the opportunity to hear the pros and cons of such issues that will affect their livelihood and the future of the farrier industry.

We would like to set the record straight that the BWFA membership consists of over 8,000 individuals, making it the largest farrier association. (Contrary to previous reports by non-BWFA individuals and groups.)

Therefore; this November at the BWFA convention we are inviting ALL FARRIERS, regardless of their affiliations, to come vote on these issues. We feel that this is only fair and that the majority should rule.

In conclusion, the BWFA Board of Directors is publicly inviting the following persons to attend the convention and speak on these issues both pro and con. There will be no secret agendas and it will be done out in the open for all to see and hear.

The is a preliminary list as of June 28, 2005:
The Guild President
The AFA President
The BWFA President
Owners of all private Horseshoeing Schools in the U.S.
The Farrier Industry Association President
Frank Lessiter of the American Farriers Journal publication
Doug Butler
John Blombach
Donald Jones
Marcus Pierce
Mike Miller and the disbanded AFA Task Force members
Representatives from Breed Associations, several congressmen and the press
BWFA Convention dates are November 4, 5, 2005 to be held at the BWFA Headquarters located at the Farriers’ National Research Center in Georgia.

We expect this list to grow as BWFA President, Ralph Casey travels across the U.S. meeting with horse owners and farriers in clinics on his Cross Country Tour 2005 in support of the BWFA, Horseshoe’n Time television show and the BWFA 2005 Annual Convention. More information and Tour Clinic Dates can be obtained at www.bwfa.net or by calling the BWFA Headquarters in Georgia at (706) 397-8047, email: farrierhdq@aol.com

Our board of directors welcomes your comments and suggestions. We also welcome you to place your opinions in our on-line Opinion Poll located on our website or mail in the form of the Liberty For All flyer being distributed nationwide. (Anonymous name polls will not be counted !)

BWFA Headquarters
14013 East Hwy 136
LaFayette, Georgia 30728

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE BWFA BOARD OF DIRECTORS
[Self-aggrandizing fluff deleted]

There will be no secret agendas and it will be done out in the open for all to see and hear...

Speaking of secret agendas, would this be the same BWFA that once offered to make me a "BWFA Master Farrier" if I'd send you $50.00? I haven't paid too much attention to the BWFA goings on since then, I figure y'all have all the credibility of a used car salesman and not quite as much integrity.

[Phantom Farrier]

Tom

Looks straight forward and honest to me. That's more than can be said for the most recent propaganda out of the AFA Headquarters in Albuquerque.

At least the BWFA isn't afraid to take the correct stand on this un-popular issue. You've got to give then credit, they usually stay out of politics and avoid controversial issues(live and let live). Actually they were dragged into this by AFA accusations that the Brotherhood was somehow positioned with the AAEP on a licensing agenda. Just more of those nasty "rumors".

Phantom

[Bill Adams]

After the BWFA tested and pasted me as a CJF after three months of school, and certified a dog as a journyman farrier, I'm surprized they don't offer licenses themselves at only $49.99 if you act now!
I see this as a stunt on Casey's part for some publicity.
Bill

[Phantom Farrier]

Bill,

A very wise publicity stunt I might add. Hope the bigshots in Albuquerque are paying close attention, they could learn a lot.

So you are an AFA Certified Journeyman Farrier, Congrats!

Phantom

[Bill Adams]

Phantom,
Not yet an AFA CJF. I said I passed the BWFA test for a CJF after only three months of school. As a mater of fact the fellow testing on the horse next to mine was alowed to pass though he should have ben disqualified because "the horse didn't bleed that much". True story.
As to the dog story, a Farrier in Ohio, I think, sent in the funds and got a certificate showing his dog a journyman. I can get the names if needed. I see the way I wrote it in the last post, it didn't come out the way I meant it to. I guess I better not quit my day job to become a writer.
Curently I still have to work out a couple of details on my shoe board, and I'll be an AFA CF. I've all ready passed the practical and the writen.
That darn AFA seems a bit tougher to get passed than the other bunch.
I must say congratulations to you on your CJF and place in The Hall, and have been appriciating you posting here.
Thanks, Bill

[T.N. Trosin]

Bill Call him John, come to that, John call yourself John.

A question for the BWFA, Arn't you the guys who had a gunfight at your last convention?

[BWFA Headquarters]

The BWFA has a professional policy. It is called a pledge as follows:

As a member of the Brotherhood of Working Farriers Association, I pledge to support the BWFA and farrier industry by barring discrimination and criticism in any way towards any individual, educator, school, organization, fellow member or working farrier. I will support those who are attempting to make the farrier trade his or her professional business.

[Phantom Farrier]

Like I've said before, I like honest and straight forward, not double speak, secret agenda and rumor. Good for the Brotherhood.

Phantom

[Bill Adams]

criticism in any way towards any individual, educator, school, organization, fellow member or working farrier. [/QUOTE]

OK then.
Nobody ever say anything to criticise any one Farrier or Farrier organization, or comittee therein. What ever the leaders want, or what ever worthless paper one can buy, so be it. Don't say anything critical.
BTW, all the AFA stuff is signed by the person who wrote it.
Bill

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

The BWFA has a professional policy. It is called a pledge as follows:

As a member of the Brotherhood of Working Farriers Association, I pledge to support the BWFA and farrier industry by barring discrimination and criticism in any way towards any individual, educator, school, organization, fellow member or working farrier. I will support those who are attempting to make the farrier trade his or her professional business.
So many buzzwords, so little time. When you think about it, why would anyone pledge not to discriminate against or criticize other folks, the things they represent, or their ideas? That doesn't make a helluva lot of sense.

Discrimination is the making of choices. Every farrier makes choices relative to his trade on a daily basis and pledging to refrain from making choices is illogical. On the other hand, invidious discrimination is a Bad Thing and has to do mainly with treating others unfairly on the basis of prejudice. For example, I discriminate against the BWFA because thay tried to sell me a master's credential, but that's a choice - and that choice wasn't made on the basis of race, color, creed, or national origin.

When it comes to criticism, our forefathers thought so much of the ability to criticize others, their ideas, and the things they do, that free speech is codified in the First Amendment of the Constitution. In the United States, I have the right to point out that Strasser runs a cult, that the BWFA testing program is less than stellar, and that a feral foot is a poor model for a domestic horse. Nobody is required to agree with my criticism, but the salient point is that I have the right to make it. I don't quite understand why anyone would pledge to give up a right guaranteed by the Constitution; more importantly, it appears to me that anyone formulating a "pledge" that requires folks to give up their right of free expression is indicative of some sort of agenda that won't stand much criticism.

[SlowShoe]

Tom,
I have very much respect for your skills and knowledge, I was a bit upset when I ran across this though

-> http://www.katyforge.com/license.htm

I dont know how anyone as keen as you could think its a good idea take away someones right to their livelyhood. As americans our rights are being stripped daily. There will allways be some ignorant guy shoeing horses even with licenses, just now he can say he's got a license. I dont think licensing will help anyone but the guys at the top. And it will only help their personal agendas to fill their wallets.

Its just a personal disagreement, you still got my respect as a farrier =]

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Tom,
I have very much respect for your skills and knowledge, I was a bit upset when I ran across this though
-> http://www.katyforge.com/license.htm
I dont know how anyone as keen as you could think its a good idea take away someones right to their livelyhood. As americans our rights are being stripped daily. There will allways be some ignorant guy shoeing horses even with licenses, just now he can say he's got a license. I dont think licensing will help anyone but the guys at the top. And it will only help their personal agendas to fill their wallets.
I apprecate your candor, but I think licensing is inevitable, not necessarily a good idea. Here's my reasoning: In my home state of Texas, the state is strapped for cash, we go from one fiscal crisis to another, land owners are taxed to death, and the influx of illegial aliens has extended our medical, education, and social service infrastructure beyond imagination. We have no state income tax, but we have a state sales tax that taxes goods, not services.

The quickest way for a Texas politician to be tarred, feathered, and ridden outa town on a rail is to suggest a state income tax, so what revenue stone does that leave unturned? That's right, a tax on services! Farriers are way down towards the bottom of any list of service industries that includes doctors, lawyers, accountants, veterinarians, etc. - but we're on there someplace and, sooner or later, the state is going to figure out that we represent an untapped source of revenue. When that legislative epiphany occurs - and occur it will - the state is going to have to implement some sort of registration/licensing procedure in order to keep track of us.

I figure it'd be a helluva lot better for our state farrier's association (TPFA) to work with the equine vets at Texas A&M to start right now to come up with a plan for testing, licensing, administration, and enforcement than it would be to wait on the state to create a bureaucracy to make sure they get their taxes. Personally, I can get along just fine with farriers and vets, but bureaucrats give me gas.

Anyway, that's my take on licensing. I don't think licensing is going to help farriers, owners, or horses one wit, but the state's insatiable need for more revenue makes it not a matter of "if" it's gonna happen; rather, a matter of "when." If you look at it thataway, it becomes a question of who would you rather deal with: Your peers or some bureaucrat?

Its just a personal disagreement, you still got my respect as a farrier.
Thanks.

[T.N. Trosin]

The BWFA has a professional policy. It is called a pledge as follows:

As a member of the Brotherhood of Working Farriers Association, I pledge to support the BWFA and farrier industry by barring discrimination and criticism in any way towards any individual, educator, school, organization, fellow member or working farrier. .

If not by name only. I recall The BFWA's president several years ago, putting the smack on "the non certified" during a visit to the 1992 WSFA winter meeting. Further, I recall the BWFA putting a very controversial and what I deemed the most irresponsible farrier article about "speed cutting" in an issue of "Southern Horseman".

Look, you guys can tell me that your the best thing to hit the farrier industry since machine made nails, but I think your organization has done more to divide farriers than bring them together.
On several occasions the BWFA has HANDED OUT, charged for credentials with out testing. In one case your president gave a handful of your Journeyman II credentials to an 8-week class at Oklahoma Farriers College. And don't crack back by saying, "where’s my proof" It's in the hands of one of my neighbors out here.

If the BWFA had done what Ralph Casey proposed all those years ago, had fulfilled Mr. Casey's promise of a true fraternal organization, If the BWFA had not taken such greedy steps to gain membership, perhaps I could respect and join you, but your actions leave a lot to be desired. It will take a whole lot more than a hollow pledge to change my mind about your organization, and your leadership.

P.S. you spell John, J-o-h-n not P-h-a-n-t-o-m

[Phantom Farrier]

T.N. Trosin,

John, that is correct, you get a gold star.

Phantom

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=BWFA Headquarters]AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE BWFA BOARD OF DIRECTORS;

We would like to set the record straight that the BWFA membership consists of over 8,000 individuals, making it the largest farrier association. (Contrary to previous reports by non-BWFA individuals and groups.)

[quote]

Are all of the 8,0000 individuals practicing farriers? I ask because you imply(..."making it the largest farrieer association") that they are. This is contrary to the information that I have. If I have incorrect information, then please correct me, if on the other hand, all the members of the BWFA are not farriers, then at a minimum, your statement is disingenuous, and quite possibly is quite dishonest. Which, in light of certain other revelations presented here and elsewhere, does nothing to improve either your standing or credibility among farriers, horseowners, veterinarians and any other equine practitioners, devotees or representatives.


Additionally, at one time, the founder of the BWFA stated that the only horses that should not be shod were broodmares, and then only if they were NEVER ridden. Is this still the position of the leadership?

And, since the BWFA founder(and President and thus defacto BOD member)owns a horseshoeing school, is it not disingenous and duplicitous when he attaches his name without disclosing said affiliation, to statements regarding possible curriculae standard/requirement changes . And, is this truely the position of the BOD, or merely a rubber stamping of the wishes, wants and desire of its founder and president?

Quote: #3 The B.W.F.A. Board of Directors will not recognize small self appointed committees.

ROTFLAMO!

I am assuming that you are referring to the AFA task force that was established and later disbanded(after its assignment was completed) by the president of the AFA, Craig Trnka? Lets set the record straight (once again) here. The president of the AFA is empowered by the By-Laws of the AFA to establish any Ad Hoc committee he deems prudent and necessary. This is not a 'self appointed committee' to which you refer(Strike ONE).

The President of the AFA only appointed the Chairman of said committee, the chairman did not self appoint. (Strike TWO).

The members of the committee were asked to serve and if they agreed, were appointed to the committee by the chairman of the committee. You by now have noted that they did not self appoint to the committee as you have inferred. (Strike THREE! You're O-U-T!).

Congratulations!, you have just lived up to the reputation that has preceeded you, the collective, not the individual.

One last thing. If you want ALL farriers regardless of affiliation or non-affiliation, vendors, and farrier schools, to have a voice and vote on these or any matters, then the only way you are going to first have to identify who all these individuals are and then you are going to have to send each and every one of them a ballot or poll or whatever you choose to call it, to vote on or respond to. Merely issuing an invitation in cyberspace or vocally(by your president as he embarks on Gulliver's Travels) is not sufficient. For how do you know that everyone concerned will receive said invitation?

HEY! Wait Just a Minute. In order to identify every farrier, vendor, school in the United States of America, you are going to have to have some kind of REGISTRATION/REGISTRY! That means that you are talking out of both sides of your face, and you REALLY DO favor a national registration of all farriers.

Now that was kinda slick! You appear to be against registering all farriers in the USA, but you really are IN FAVOR of just the opposite(to refresh your memory incase you forgot, you are infavor OF registering all farriers in the USA).

Pretty slick trick, hiding your true agenda in plain sight.

Rick, (and everyone else that co-exists, sometimes peacefully, sometimes not, within the increasingly crowded confines of his skull: Two Dogs, EMETEM, The Sultan, The Prince ,and any/all other as yet unrecognized personas {and some think that Sybil had problems}).

[Rick Burten]

AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE BWFA BOARD OF DIRECTORS;

(Anonymous name polls will not be counted !)

BWFA Headquarters
14013 East Hwy 136
LaFayette, Georgia 30728


Since you brought up the subject of anonymity, just who is posting the information and responses originating from BWFA headquarters?

At least when information is posted by the AFA and/or the Guild of Professional Farriers, the individual posting the information signs the posting with his/her name and position.

Rick

Rick

[ladyblacksmith]

Here's some old news on the subject on licencing, and the different opinions.:)

[Kelly Case]

Here is some new news on licensing and registration and a few of my opinions as well, I don’t have time to read or post on these threads very often and I really wouldn’t even have read this **** if it had not been for someone calling my attention to the fact that the licensing and registration issue is once again being beaten to death on this website and a few others.
First it seems to me the only people that are talking about licensing and registration is our old friends in the AFA.
The AFA being the only organization that has been hell bent on controlling the farriers since it's inception. See page 8 of Principles of Horseshoeing II and read the quote from Walt Taylor that was made in I believe 1972 or 1973 in Anvil Magazine. (I have an original copy of that article for any of you who are interested)

This Spring at the Equine Affaire in Ohio I talked with the AFA President and President elect and I asked bluntly if licensing and registration was off the table or just back under the table. Well after the song and dance I got, I believe its under the table and being pushed as hard as ever especially when I was told that “Though officially the current administration is not pursuing it (licensing and registration) any board member could bring it to the table, and in the event that would happen the AFA as a 501(c)3 couldn’t lobby but has offered its model for certification and would act as expert witnesses to insure a smooth transition from the current system to the new system” Now that sounds to me like the AFA is at it again. Do the math. A smaller BOD is easier to control so the infighting that stopped the process last time would be held to a minimum and the “Walt Taylor manifesto” is that much closer to fruition.

Now the friend of mine who encouraged me to read these forums and the other websites that discuss licensing also encouraged me to stay for a BOD meeting of the BWFA while I was down in GA working at the Farriers' National Research Center. Here is the other side of the coin.
One: According to the attorneys present at the meeting, the schools could have and should have shut the AFA down after the Mike Miller report, however not more than two schools had the ***** to do it, hell one school owner stood right up in that meeting slammed his fist on the table and stated that he would physically fight to stop this ****. Of course he accepted the AFA educator of the year award right after that (quite the hypocrite if you ask me).
Two: According to the attorneys present at the BWFA BOD meeting, the AFA is trying to monopolize the industry and with the slander and lies that have been perpetuated about the BWFA and some other individuals in the industry, there is a basis for a class action suit against the AFA and many of its members. Again that goes from the Luikart days to Walt Taylor, Mike Miller and many more people in the AFA who have sat around and let there mouths write checks their *** can't cover.
The documentation that has been kept at the FNRC is enormous, and I actually had to volunteer my pickup truck to help haul the files to the attorney's office in Atlanta. It goes all the way back to the letters that were sent out to AFA chapters by then AFA President Randy Luikart belittling the testing procedures of the BWFA, and the BWFA in general (ask Walt Taylor he has seen those letters) all the way to the present time up to and including much of the **** that is spewed forth on this website and others.
Three: According to the lead attorney, the BWFA has the only recognized research center in the U.S. and has documented 15 years of research on shoes, shoeing, the function of the lower limb different treatments and protocols for shoeing the sound and unsound horse, etc. Thereby making the BWFA, and the Farriers' National Research Center the “Expert” and the expert witness.
So far the only thing that has stopped this lawsuit from taking place is the BWFA President Ralph Casey. As Ralph has never bashed the AFA or encouraged the bashing of the AFA or condoned anyone who bashed the AFA, he has been reluctant to really stir things up with a lawsuit.
However, there is a younger more aggressive leadership moving up in the BWFA and they are sick and tired of the **** and, well, honestly some of them are spoiling for a fight. Now, I don’t know how the vote went as I was to busy hauling evidence to Atlanta but I do know that I gave my vote to a BOD member who wants to put this **** to rest once and for all. I'm sure that it will be awhile before all of the documentation is sorted out but it's being put together and if and when it happens it will be one hell of a lawsuit.
So maybe instead of sitting here in a two bit chat room running your mouths and making every shoer look like a fool, you all need to get your heads down and butts up and shoe some horses. At least do something productive for our trade like perhaps educate the horse owner, so that they can make an informed choice about what is right for their horse.

Kelly Case BWFA CJF II

[Jason Maki]

Would it be so bad to have a standardized education and knowledge base for farriers? At present a "farrier" can be anyone form a guy with tractor supply tools and no education and experience to someone like Bob Pethic, Chris Gregory etc... It confuses me, so how does an owner stand a chance in knowing who is a "farrier"?
I do not know if licensing is the answer, but in my opinion, there is far to varied a skill level and knowledge base in the proffesion.
JMO,
Jason

[Bill Lansing]

Kelly Case BWFA CJF II

What are all those neat letters after your name? Is it code language? Or did you have a fit while typing and your name is really Kelly Case II?

Anyway, is Ralph Casey the cool dude that runs those infomercials about horseshoeing on TV?

Thanks,
Bill

[Jaye Perry]

What are all those neat letters after your name? Is it code language? Or did you have a fit while typing and your name is really Kelly Case II?

Anyway, is Ralph Casey the cool dude that runs those infomercials about horseshoeing on TV?

Thanks,
Bill


Yep only a 40 minute drive; I am enamored!:D:D:D

[Bill Steller]

Yep only a 40 minute drive; I am enamored!:D:D:D

Jaye are you BWFA cert.?

[Bill Lansing]

Yep only a 40 minute drive; I am enamored!:D:D:D

I can't get over the amount of farriers who talk about sueing people. This character talks about sueing and telling others to go shoe some horses in the same breath. :cool:

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

Kelly Case in gray

Here is some new news on licensing and registration and a few of my opinions as well, I don’t have time to read or post on these threads very often and I really wouldn’t even have read this **** if it had not been for someone calling my attention to the fact that the licensing and registration issue is once again being beaten to death on this website and a few others.

Welcome to the forums.

First it seems to me the only people that are talking about licensing and registration is our old friends in the AFA.

So what? Is the BWFA against free speech?

The AFA being the only organization that has been hell bent on controlling the farriers since it's inception. See page 8 of Principles of Horseshoeing II and read the quote from Walt Taylor that was made in I believe 1972 or 1973 in Anvil Magazine. (I have an original copy of that article for any of you who are interested)

Again, so what? In reality, the only entity capable of exerting any "control" over working farriers is the JHU at a few tracks in states without right to work laws.

This Spring at the Equine Affaire in Ohio I talked with the AFA President and President elect and I asked bluntly if licensing and registration was off the table or just back under the table.

Why do you feel the AFA's officers owe you an explanation?

Well after the song and dance I got, I believe its under the table and being pushed as hard as ever especially when I was told that “Though officially the current administration is not pursuing it (licensing and registration) any board member could bring it to the table, and in the event that would happen the AFA as a 501(c)3 couldn’t lobby but has offered its model for certification and would act as expert witnesses to insure a smooth transition from the current system to the new system”

Were the government to initiate licensing, one supposes they could use the BWFA's model, which apparently consists primarily of sending the testing fees to Ralph and does not include such bothersome niceties as testing for competence; however, that particular model engenders mostly laughter and contempt among those who've stood for a farrier test of any sort and that laughter would probably preclude any political entity's using the BWFA model.

Now that sounds to me like the AFA is at it again. Do the math. A smaller BOD is easier to control so the infighting that stopped the process last time would be held to a minimum and the “Walt Taylor manifesto” is that much closer to fruition.

Given that the BWFA jumps whenever Ralph says, "Frog," historically it appears the BWFA is much easier for an individual to control.

Now the friend of mine who encouraged me to read these forums and the other websites that discuss licensing also encouraged me to stay for a BOD meeting of the BWFA while I was down in GA working at the Farriers' National Research Center. Here is the other side of the coin.

One: According to the attorneys present at the meeting, the schools could have and should have shut the AFA down after the Mike Miller report,

As you note correctly, some lawyers will say any damfool thing in order to drum up business.

however not more than two schools had the ***** to do it, hell one school owner stood right up in that meeting slammed his fist on the table and stated that he would physically fight to stop this ****.

It appears nobody accepted his offer.

Of course he accepted the AFA educator of the year award right after that (quite the hypocrite if you ask me).

I dunno who it was or even if it happened as you say it did, but if it did he was damn sure no hypocrite! Hypocrites say one thing and do another, they aren't willing to fight for their beliefs.

Two: According to the attorneys present at the BWFA BOD meeting, the AFA is trying to monopolize the industry and with the slander and lies that have been perpetuated about the BWFA and some other individuals in the industry, there is a basis for a class action suit against the AFA and many of its members.

One hates to be the bearer of bad tidings, but truth is an absolute defense against claims of slander, a fact that makes any possibility of the BWFA's mounting a successful lawsuit against the AFA nothing more than a BWFA wet dream.

Again that goes from the Luikart days to Walt Taylor, Mike Miller and many more people in the AFA who have sat around and let there mouths write checks their *** can't cover.

Because the BWFA once offered me a "Masters Certification" if I'd send them $50, I've written on several occasions that the BWFA has all the credibility of a used car salesman. On reflection, I probably ought to apologize to Texas' used car salesman because they have a helluva lot more credibility than the BWFA in my estimation.

The documentation that has been kept at the FNRC is enormous, and I actually had to volunteer my pickup truck to help haul the files to the attorney's office in Atlanta. It goes all the way back to the letters that were sent out to AFA chapters by then AFA President Randy Luikart belittling the testing procedures of the BWFA

LMAO! The BWFA has testing procedures? Who knew?

and the BWFA in general (ask Walt Taylor he has seen those letters) all the way to the present time up to and including much of the **** that is spewed forth on this website and others.

Alas, the fact that truth is an absolute defense against such claims gives you a tough row to hoe, despite your vaunted attorney's opinion.

Three: According to the lead attorney, the BWFA has the only recognized research center in the U.S. and has documented 15 years of research on shoes, shoeing, the function of the lower limb different treatments and protocols for shoeing the sound and unsound horse, etc. Thereby making the BWFA, and the Farriers' National Research Center the “Expert” and the expert witness.

Apparently your "lead attorney" didn't do much research before offering you legal advice. Texas A&M's Hoof Project comes immediately to mind, as well as other longstanding and ongoing hoof research projects at Cornell, UPenn, Auburn, Texas A&M, CO State, and other vet schools. If your so-called, "Farriers' National Research Center" ever butts heads with these folks in terms of credibility and expertise, I can pick a winner.

So far the only thing that has stopped this lawsuit from taking place is the BWFA President Ralph Casey. As Ralph has never bashed the AFA or encouraged the bashing of the AFA or condoned anyone who bashed the AFA, he has been reluctant to really stir things up with a lawsuit.

Frankly, who gives a damn?

However, there is a younger more aggressive leadership moving up in the BWFA and they are sick and tired of the **** and, well, honestly some of them are spoiling for a fight.

So what? Should the AFA tremble at the thought? Or, will the AFA's lawyers merely point out that truth is an absolute defense against such claims?

Now, I don’t know how the vote went as I was to busy hauling evidence to Atlanta but I do know that I gave my vote to a BOD member who wants to put this **** to rest once and for all. I'm sure that it will be awhile before all of the documentation is sorted out but it's being put together and if and when it happens it will be one hell of a lawsuit.

I figure any BWFA lawsuit will have all the relevance of distant mouse flatulence to the farrier world - nobody will care.

So maybe instead of sitting here in a two bit chat room running your mouths and making every shoer look like a fool, you all need to get your heads down and butts up and shoe some horses.

Or what? Will you continue to whine interminably whenever you grace us with your presence? Will you threaten sue anyone who has the audacity to point out the BWFA has a rather sordid history? In point of fact, you are the only participant in this exchange who is playing the fool by attempting to defend the indefensible.

At least do something productive for our trade like perhaps educate the horse owner, so that they can make an informed choice about what is right for their horse.

I can think of several members of this forum, who've been educating owners, veterinarians, and other farriers longer than you've been housebroke. Not all of us are AFA members, some of us might even be BWFA members, but none of us are willing to accept the BWFA's attempts to limit our right of free speech. In terms of philosophy, your emperor is still butt nekkid and if you don't want folks to hear about it, clothe his ragged arse.

[Ronald E. Kramedjian]

Here is some new news on licensing and registration and a few of my opinions as well,
Read you whole post and there ain't anything new and your opinions aren’t all that interesting either.

Two: According to the attorneys present at the BWFA BOD meeting, the AFA is trying to monopolize the industry and with the slander and lies that have been perpetuated about the BWFA and some other individuals in the industry, there is a basis for a class action suit against the AFA and many of its members.Baloney. It is easy to threaten to sue this way, but until the lawyers write the first letter stating that a state of war is pending it ain't real. It is my opinion that you are a posturing twit blowing hard to seem important. Personally I would find it hard to believe that an educated competent attorney would use the word monopoly in regard a trade association that only represents between 4 and 8 percent of the estimated farriers in the country. Given how litigious people are these days I also have a hard time believing that he would have talked about slander or defamation either. After all the truth is an absolute defense and there has been no evidence presented proving that any of the allegations that I know about, made by AFA members or officials, are not true.


However, there is a younger more aggressive leadership moving up in the BWFA and they are sick and tired of the **** and, well, honestly some of them are spoiling for a fight. Now, I don’t know how the vote went as I was to busy hauling evidence to Atlanta but I do know that I gave my vote to a BOD member who wants to put this **** to rest once and for all.I am sure the AFA is a quiver with fear and respect for this upcoming leaderships ability to bluster over this male bovine excrement. You all need to put up, which you haven't been able to yet, or shut up and dissolve before you embarrass yourselves even more than you already have.


So maybe instead of sitting here in a two bit chat room running your mouths and making every shoer look like a foolPerhaps you should take your own advice instead of making other BWFA shoers look bad by your inarticulate example?

[BS-Horseshoeing]

Kelly, you must be one of them 20 a day horse shoers. You must be one of them do as many as possible so the other guy can't have any business types. Me, I'd rather shoe five horses a day for a $100.00 a piece instead of 20 for $50.00. Then I can go home, see my son and play ball, hang out with my wife, and have a life. You want to shoe dawn to dusk, go ahead if that's all you BWFA guys know how to do.

If you re-read your post you will see, if you can comprehend, how silly you sound. The BWFA has no power, the AFA has no power, all this will come from government intervention. It don't matter who's model is used, you better be prepared to pass the test or quit shoeing. Can you walk the walk? Your talk ain't nothin special, so your work better be damn good.

As for the BWFA, well I could have passed there so called test after eight weeks of shoeing school and recieved my Journeyman 1 in their so called system. I couldn't shoe a straight simple horse at that time very well, and they would have given me a Journeyman 1? I'd say there standards ain't to high. As far as experts, from the u-tube vids I've seen and stuff on RFD TV, expert is not what comes to mind. And if they do research, let's see the papers, articles, data, double blind studies, etc. that show the results and findings from that research. If you can't produce those, then shut the heck up.:rolleyes:

[Bill Adams]

Two: According to the attorneys present at the BWFA BOD meeting, the AFA is trying to monopolize the industry and with the slander and lies that have been perpetuated about the BWFA and some other individuals in the industry, there is a basis for a class action suit against the AFA and many of its members.
Kelly Case BWFA CJF II

When you say "monopolize" do you mean something like they would like lots and lots of Farriers to join the AFA (gasp, scream)?
As to the slander and lies I don't know that I have heard any of that, but the true stories I've heard and experienced are pretty darn humorous and damming.

[Rick Burten]

As far as experts, from the u-tube vids I've seen and stuff on RFD TV, expert is not what comes to mind.
But the somewhat buxom blonde is kinda cute......That window dressing kinda distracts the viewer from listening to the fairy tales and Junk Science being spewed offered up for dissection and [in]digestion........YMMV.

[Bill Lansing]

National Research Farriers Whatever, is to equine research what Girls Gone wild is to human mating habbits.

Bill

[Mike Ferrara]

It confuses me, so how does an owner stand a chance in knowing who is a "farrier"?

Are you saying that it can't be done? There are probably as many ways as there are owners and some owners may not even care much.

I do not know if licensing is the answer, but in my opinion, there is far to varied a skill level and knowledge base in the proffesion.
JMO,
Jason

Says who? Do you think that consumers have too many choices?

I thought you were a free market guy. If an owner wants to have some kid with tools from the tractor supply and no education do their work, who else needs to stick their nose in? I say, leave them to handle their own affairs.

[Gary_Miller]

Would it be so bad to have a standardized education and knowledge base for farriers? At present a "farrier" can be anyone form a guy with tractor supply tools and no education and experience to someone like Bob Pethic, Chris Gregory etc...
Oh the ability to choose what you want to do and be when one grows up. As well as how good or how fare you want to go in your chosen profession. Kind of nice when you really sit back and think about it

It confuses me, so how does an owner stand a chance in knowing who is a "farrier"?I guess they just need to get educated as well. Instead of just listening to the person who OWNS the horse in the next stall.

I do not know if licensing is the answer, but in my opinion, there is far to varied a skill level and knowledge base in the proffesion.Thats what makes this such a nice profession. An individual can still choose what kind of skill level and knowledge base he wants . Its called freedom to choose. The nice thing is, that in the GOOD OL USA we don't have to conform to someone else's standard on education or skill, at lest in Farriery, if we don't want to and we still get to work/run our own business in our chosen profession. Why would anyone want to give that up?

Thank God for the United States Of America.

[George Geist]

And if they do research, let's see the papers, articles, data, double blind studies, etc. that show the results and findings from that research. If you can't produce those, then shut the heck up.:rolleyes:
This I think is a very pertinent point. This place was the flagship endeavor of Ralph. He built it with volunteer labor, on his property. Can anybody out there point to any relevent groundbreaking discoveries that have come out of this hallowed institution?

According to Mr Case it's been over 10 years now? What have these guys to show for all this "research"?
George

[Jason Maki]

Mike;Gary,
In form I understand and actually beleive in what you are saying. Perhaps my perception has been changed slightly by working with vets and vet students on a daily basis. They benefit from a commonality in education and experience. They share a common vocabulary and have a a good network for exchanging information. I see that lacking in our field. Externships, internships and residencies are the norm; while most shoeing apprenticeships here are informal and unpaid. a "license' does not make a skilled proffesional, but effort and education does.
I'm stuck in the middle. Laisez faire worked for me, but I sought out every opportunity to learn more and every certification i thought mattered (and I still am preparing for more tests--the TE and the AWCF) i ran down. My point is this: if I can do it anyone can. Would it be a terrible thing to have some form of standardization of skills and knolwedge for farriers?
Jason

[Rafter B]

Jason,

I completely agree with you. I also am a huge supporter of this great country that allows us to do what we want, but I ask the same question. Why would it be a bad thing to try to make our profession as best as it can be by raising the standards for every farrier? When people get the different certifications through whichever association, it is not the title that really matters. It is what that person learned trying to achieve that certification. If there were to be a standardized test for all farriers, we would all have to study. Which is my point of trying to better EVERYONE'S shoeing job.

[Mike Ferrara]

if I can do it anyone can.

I don't think you give yourself enough credit but even if anyone could there may be those who don't want to...and those who don't want to employ those to.

Lets face it, with minimal knowledge/training one can trim some pasture taters and maybe nail on the occasional plate and be happy with happy clients and horses. That's not very ambitious but "to each their own" and I think they fill a market need...as inconvenient as it is for those of us who would like to cruise in and get the big bucks for taking 5 minutes to run a rasp over those pasture worn feet. LOL

I'd also point out some of our own history. There's still quite a bit of old blacksmith and farrier tools to be found laying around old farms. For very good reason, we have been, and to an extent still are, a nation of "do-it-yourselfers". It's never been uncommon for the "do-it-yourselfers" to help out a neighbor or pick up some extra income by doing theirs too.



Would it be a terrible thing to have some form of standardization of skills and knolwedge for farriers?
Jason

I've said before that I'd like to see something like a degree program offered. IMO, "offering" is good but "forcing" is bad. Build it and they'll come...if it's of value. Or you can use a gun to force them to come. In which case, it doesn't have to be of value.

[Jason Maki]

mike,
I see your point and in fact have forwarded it in some conversations. I do not think that the free market will create an environment in which the "standard' farrier is required to be highly educated, highly skilled and diverse. We have now the direct result of a free market--vast difference in skill, knowledge, education, and price- many can and have self educated.
However if a two or better yet (imo) a four year degree program was offered the quality of shoeing would rise, yet a market force does not exist for such a program. Most owners are happy with what they have, and those that are not seek out the "specialist' or "expert".
Its the difference bewteen how things are and how things "should" be.
I do not see it changing, but i wish it could.:confused: A standard of education and skill would improve vet farrier relations, the welfare of horses and the lives and bussinesses of farriers in general. (though the added expense might reduce the number of pasture plugs that got regular hoof care)
Jason

[wwhite1973]

A standard of education and skill would improve vet farrier relations,
Jason now that you are at the University I think your head may be in the sand a little. I know you had to run into vets before you got there who actually knew nothing about equine feet. I argue with them all the time over founder cases. Put a keg shoe on backwards, or the best " I have had really good luck putting an egg bar shoe on backwards!":eek: I have one vet though that always pulls me to the side and says, "What are we going to do." There are a few vets in my area that are pretty good but for the most part they know very little about equine feet. They did 4 year degreed programs and internships and what ever and their answer is "Put a keg shoe on backwards'! You are at a university working with probably damn good vets who know equines and you don't have a four year degree do you? Pat yourself on the back because you certainly deserve it and have earned it and don't have to work with the vet who neutered two cats, pulled a calf and delivered a goat before he/she got to your foundered case but didn't bring the x-ray machine because they didn't think they would need it today. The ones who want to be the best are going to work to be the best even with out a degree. If it was required to become a farrier one had to do a four year degree program, the person still has to use what they are taught and HAVE THE DRIVE to do it! I can name three vets in the immediate area that do equines that I wouldn't take my hamster(if I had one) to. I guess what I am trying to say is that you can place all kinds of requirements on farriers but only the person can decide just how good they want to be. I think the only thing that would be different is that horse owners would be paying alot more for hoof care than they are now and there would be a lot less farriers.
Just like some certified farriers work quality has been questioned the same thing would happen with an "educated farrier". People just get lazy. Vets all ready have to be degreed and I think everyone here will agree that there are some good ones and some bad ones. Damn that's the same thing they say about non-degreed, non -certified farriers. The only difference between the good and bad farrier is that the good one really wants to be the best at what they do and the bad one doesn't really care as long he/she can bring home the bacon.

Wayne White

[Mike Ferrara]

mike,
I see your point and in fact have forwarded it in some conversations. I do not think that the free market will create an environment in which the "standard' farrier is required to be highly educated, highly skilled and diverse.


Licensing wouldn't force that either....and in Illinois, it didn't. Bringing government in just does what you'd expect it to do.
I'm not sure I know what a "standard farrier" is. There are all kinds out there and they have very different businesses.
We have now the direct result of a free market--vast difference in skill, knowledge, education, and price- many can and have self educated.

I don't see that as a problem.
However if a two or better yet (imo) a four year degree program was offered the quality of shoeing would rise, yet a market force does not exist for such a program.

I don't know what the demand would be but I would think the size of the target market could be estimated by the number of those attending existing style farrier schools. I would think that the trade is pretty small compared to many others.

Most owners are happy with what they have, and those that are not seek out the "specialist' or "expert".

If most owners are happy with what they have, I'd submit that as evidence that there isn't a problem. However, there are all kinds of owners who own all kinds of horses, used in all kinds of disciplines and they seek all kinds of farriers. As is, it seems there's room for everybody.

Its the difference bewteen how things are and how things "should" be.
I do not see it changing, but i wish it could.:confused: A standard of education and skill would improve vet farrier relations, the welfare of horses and the lives and bussinesses of farriers in general. (though the added expense might reduce the number of pasture plugs that got regular hoof care)
Jason

Who's to say how "it should be"? Vet/farrier relations seem fine...depending on the vet and farrier, of course. Horses seem to be doing OK and the farriers who want good businesses have them and make a pretty good buck too.

[calshoer]

Can anybody out there point to any relevent groundbreaking discoveries that have come out of this hallowed institution?SURE! There was the video they had on their website for quite a while about what happens with "bad shoeing" . Specifically when you shoe a crooked horse even more crooked. They wedged up the lateral sides of a base narrow toe out horse who was already interfering prior to this very scientific demonstration. The put the hoses owner/rider guy on the horse he galloped it down the field. The horse crossed up its front feet and fell headfirst arseoverteakettle, throwing rider in the dirt.

Thats some purdy darn good ground breaking research from the good ole boys down here.They 'broke the ground' with the rider and the horse's head.

[Travis Reed]

Are you serious patty….is it on you tube

[Rick Talbert]

look up the one they did on contracted heels on youtube. i think it is listed as like contracted heels 5 (or maybe 6). If you can sit through it, the horse is lame as heck afterwards and they tell the owner that the horse must of had an abscess from a hot nail from a previous shoeing and that their shoeing and screwing in a nolan hoof plate must of somehow brought the symptoms of that abscess out (but it was nothing they did to cause it) lol. They could't even see that the horse was lame until they trotted it. What a farce.

[Rick Talbert]

sorry its listed as the contracted heels part 2 video, i'm getting a kick out of watchin these things

[Rick Talbert]

Here is some new news on licensing and registration and a few of my opinions as well, I don’t have time to read or post on these threads very often and I really wouldn’t even have read this **** you might just learn something if you did take the time to read some of the stuff that is posted here and then you could pass it on to your students if it had not been for someone calling my attention to the fact that the licensing and registration issue is once again being beaten to death on this website and a few others. it does get beaten to death, your correct. but the bwfa beats it to death too.
First it seems to me the only people that are talking about licensing and registration is our old friends in the AFA. Please, wasn't it Casey who went on the war path against this licensing and went on a no licensing tour.The AFA being the only organization that has been hell bent on controlling the farriers since it's inception.how do ya figure that? See page 8 of Principles of Horseshoeing II and read the quote from Walt Taylor that was made in I believe 1972 or 1973 in Anvil Magazine. (I have an original copy of that article for any of you who are interested) I'm interested so why don't you quote it for us.This Spring at the Equine Affaire in Ohio I talked with the AFA President and President elect and I asked bluntly if licensing and registration was off the table or just back under the table.So, it was you who were bringing the subject up again, not the AFA? Well after the song and dance I got,Ha those guys can't sing or dance! I believe its under the table and being pushed as hard as ever especially when I was told that “Though officially the current administration is not pursuing it (licensing and registration) You believe it is being pushed as hard as ever especially because you were told the current administration is not pursuing it? huh.any board member could bring it to the table, and in the event that would happen the AFA as a 501(c)3 couldn’t lobby but has offered its model for certification and would act as expert witnesses to insure a smooth transition from the current system to the new system” Now that sounds to me like the AFA is at it again. Nope, that sounds like an open organization that would not restrict a board member from bringing any subject to the table. Do the math. A smaller BOD is easier to control so the infighting that stopped the process last time would be held to a minimum and the “Walt Taylor manifesto” is that much closer to fruition. those sneaky guys are smarter than i thought!

Now the friend of mine who encouraged me to read these forums and the other websites that discuss licensing also encouraged me to stay for a BOD meeting of the BWFA while I was down in GA working at the Farriers' National Research Center. Is that friend preferring to remain anonymous for some reason? Here is the other side of the coin.One: According to the attorneys present at the meeting, the schools could have and should have shut the AFA down after the Mike Miller report, How, Why, and on what grounds? however not more than two schools had the ***** to do it, tell us which 2 schools they were so we'll know which 2 schools had the whatever that word was, to do it hell one school owner stood right up in that meeting slammed his fist on the table and stated that he would physically fight to stop this ****. wow, thats dramatic, who was it, or is that classified? Of course he accepted the AFA educator of the year award right after that (quite the hypocrite if you ask me).who could it be????Two: According to the attorneys present at the BWFA BOD meeting, the AFA is trying to monopolize the industry and with the slander and lies that have been perpetuated about the BWFA and some other individuals in the industry, there is a basis for a class action suit against the AFA and many of its members.like what? this is gettin good! Is it still slander if its true? What were these lies? Again that goes from the Luikart days to Walt Taylor, Mike Miller and many more people in the AFA who have sat around and let there mouths write checks their *** can't cover. Boy thats pretty tough talk there, they musta been sittin around just tellin all kinds of lies huh?
The documentation that has been kept at the FNRC is enormous, and I actually had to volunteer my pickup truck to help haul the files to the attorney's office in Atlanta. holy smokes thats a buncha lies, a whole dang pickup truck fulla lies. It goes all the way back to the letters that were sent out to AFA chapters by then AFA President Randy Luikart belittling the testing procedures of the BWFA, and the BWFA in general can you quote something for us? we all know how rigorous the BWFA testing procedures are, and the bwfa in general, how could anyone belittle such a such a fine association? I bet that hurt some feelings.(ask Walt Taylor he has seen those letters)why would we care if walt taylor has seen the letters? all the way to the present time up to and including much of the **** that is spewed forth on this website and others. well don't get your panties in a wad over it.Three: According to the lead attorney, the BWFA has the only recognized research center in the U.S. and has documented 15 years of research on shoes, shoeing, the function of the lower limb different treatments and protocols for shoeing the sound and unsound horse, etc. you mean that metal building with a few shoes nailed on the wall? or is there another research center? Thereby making the BWFA, and the Farriers' National Research Center the “Expert” and the expert witness. now thats just takin it a little far, we've all seen the videos and the TV series and met graduates and BWFA guys and one thing is evident and that is that there is nothing about any of the above that comes anywhere near the word expert. sorry, thats not slander, thats just straight talk.
So far the only thing that has stopped this lawsuit from taking place is the BWFA President Ralph Casey. As Ralph has never bashed the AFA or encouraged the bashing of the AFA or condoned anyone who bashed the AFA, he has been reluctant to really stir things up with a lawsuit.well he is smarter than he looks.
However, there is a younger more aggressive leadership moving up in the BWFA and they are sick and tired of the **** and, well, honestly some of them are spoiling for a fight. well I'm sure the AFA is intimidated. Now, I don’t know how the vote went as I was to busy hauling evidence to Atlanta but I do know that I gave my vote to a BOD member who wants to put this **** to rest once and for all. why do you have to curse so much? thats not very professional. I'm sure that it will be awhile before all of the documentation is sorted out but it's being put together and if and when it happens it will be one hell of a lawsuit. yeah okay
So maybe instead of sitting here in a two bit chat room running your mouths and making every shoer look like a fool, you all need to get your heads down and butts up and shoe some horses.buddy you have no idea At least do something productive for our trade like perhaps educate the horse owner, so that they can make an informed choice about what is right for their horse. If we did that, you might say we were slandering the BWFA

[Rick Burten]

you might just learn something if you did take the time to read some of the stuff that is posted here and then you could pass it on to your students it does get beaten to death, your correct. but the bwfa beats it to death too.
Rick, the subject is likeVi-agra for Mr. Case. :p
Is that friend preferring to remain anonymous for some reason?
The secret is out. Its Harvey the Invisible Rabbit........
Is it still slander if its true? What were these lies?
Depends on who's telling the tale. He'd tell you but its a secret and if he did tell you he'd have to kill you so the secret didn't get out. Of course, dying from laughter would probably get him off the hook for murder......
holy smokes thats a buncha lies, a whole dang pickup truck fulla lies.
Boggles the mind doesn't it.
we all know how rigorous the BWFA testing procedures are, and the bwfa in general, how could anyone belittle such a such a fine association?
As has already been observed, "The truth is an absolute defense".
well he is smarter than he looks.
Or, is that "sly like a fox"?


I'm sure that it will be awhile before all of the documentation is sorted out but it's being put together and if and when it happens it will be one hell of a lawsuit.
I love it! "If and when"...ROTFLMFAO!! I'm sure that the AFA leadership, and the current, past and future membership of the AFA is losing a lot of sleep worrying about it and have already put their attorney's phone number on speed dial in their cell phones.

[westtxshoer]

"If and when"...ROTFLMFAO!!

Rick I graduated high school in Merkel, Texas where ag classes were pushed more than english. What the heck does "ROTFLMFAO" mean?

[Mike Ferrara]

Rick I graduated high school in Merkel, Texas where ag classes were pushed more than english. What the heck does "ROTFLMFAO" mean?
Rolling On The Floor Laughing My F ing A ss Off

[westtxshoer]

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My F ing A ss Off

Now that's funny.

[calshoer]

Are you serious patty….is it on you tubeI am serious. It USED to be on their website but I have not seen it on U-tube..maybe PETA got to them or something. I was going to sic PETA on them but they removed it first. :rolleyes:

[SlowShoe]

Jason, I just want to point out that a the current system we have today seems to be working just fine in most cases. Plus it forces people who have less skills to make less money than those with better skills. There are folks who will nail a set of shoes on for 60-70 bucks in my neck of the woods. It might not be pretty, but the horses I've seen are still sound. The market demands these types, because some horse owners cant afford to have me shoe their horses. Besides you can have a standard for everyone. But it's got to be low enough for most people to pass it. I dont want to be lumped in with most farriers... If people want standards then they should be educated on certification.

-josh

[bumfoot SHOER]

Rick, the subject is likeVi-agra for Mr. Case. :p

The secret is out. Its Harvey the Invisible Rabbit........

Depends on who's telling the tale. He'd tell you but its a secret and if he did tell you he'd have to kill you so the secret didn't get out. Of course, dying from laughter would probably get him off the hook for murder......

Boggles the mind doesn't it.

As has already been observed, "The truth is an absolute defense".

Or, is that "sly like a fox"?



I love it! "If and when"...ROTFLMFAO!! I'm sure that the AFA leadership, and the current, past and future membership of the AFA is losing a lot of sleep worrying about it and have already put their attorney's phone number on speed dial in their cell phones.
mr burten is there a cert test for pf? if so were do i get the study guide for it thank you . bryan e

[Rick Burten]

mr burten is there a cert test for pf? if so were do i get the study guide for it thank you . bryan e
Indeed there is. You take it every day. The study guide is available on-line, in the field, over the phone, in your heart and mind, etc. :)

[ladyblacksmith]

Would it be so bad to have a standardized education and knowledge base for farriers? At present a "farrier" can be anyone form a guy with tractor supply tools and no education and experience to someone like Bob Pethic, Chris Gregory etc... It confuses me, so how does an owner stand a chance in knowing who is a "farrier"?
I do not know if licensing is the answer, but in my opinion, there is far to varied a skill level and knowledge base in the proffesion.
JMO,
Jason

So true Jason. We should have something, and the poor client and it's the horse that suffers. I do not know if licensing is the answer either; but if we ourselves don't come together and regulate ourselves pretty soon; then we will others doing it for us!! God help us all; if that should ever happen.

Tom S. is right in that the only enity with any power if the Union in some tracks where there is no right to work laws. There again lies another problem with breeding incompensy in our own profession and trade.
I know of a plater now that is the "POSTER CHILD" for the Union to be brought back on the tracks and for the need to regulate ourselves.
Licensing has been around since 1874, but only for the tracks. It has worked out with the platers using the Union plater's test to make sure of some quaility of work.

We need to stop all of this infighting among ourselves and get together; the Union, Guild, AFA, BWFA, ect and bring our schools together; and have a good education Farrier Science college level degree.

This is our future if we would let it be.

[Gary Hill]

Mr Stovall has always also stated that, Education should be at the forefront of what the AFA and any other group does for the young Farriers. Actually that should be for All Farriers.

[ladyblacksmith]

Mr Stovall has always also stated that, Education should be at the forefront of what the AFA and any other group does for the young Farriers. Actually that should be for All Farriers.

Here, Here...........Farrier education at a college level degree using farriers schools for the forging/shoeing part; and regular college classes like at New Bolton Center, Cornell for the Equine Science part for a A.S. in Farrier Science like any other profession and trade.

Ex. MBA in business, B.S. in Accounting ect........that's where we should be headed in the future of our industry and the Associations should promote and be apart of it, including still using the certs, ect.

[bababoey38]

What ever happen to go out make a living SHOE HORSES.In my opinion I and most horse owners could give a rats behind what organization you or I belong too.Give it a rest go out and do the best you can.WAHHHHHHHHH she is a plater Wahhhhhhh i am AFA wahhhhhhhhh I am union really folks if you have a successful business over the years be happy and great full,Some people would enjoy having a successful business.I belong to the working mans bar association.Now go ahead and rip me apart.:cool:

[Rick Talbert]

[QUOTE]What ever happen to go out make a living SHOE HORSES.Nothing happened to it, thats what everyone does. In my opinion I and most horse owners could give a rats behind what organization you or I belong too. Thats part of the problem in that the owners are not educated concerning the standards of the different associations, therefore, when they think they are getting a journeyman farrier, they may actually be getting a journeyman farrier who got his journeyman certification from a lesser association and in reality the "journeyman" may not know which end of the nail to drive. Give it a rest go out and do the best you can. Everyone is going out and doing the best they can, but that doesn't mean we cannot have a conversation. WAHHHHHHHHH she is a plater Wahhhhhhh i am AFA wahhhhhhhhh I am union really folks if you have a successful business over the years be happy and great full,Some people would enjoy having a successful business I am sure we are all gratefull. I'm not sure what the wahhhh means or what it is referring to.I belong to the working mans bar association.did ya'll have a meeting this evenning?Now go ahead and rip me apart. I don't think anyone wants to rip you apart, you have a right to express your opinion

[BS-Horseshoeing]

What ever happen to go out make a living SHOE HORSES.In my opinion I and most horse owners could give a rats behind what organization you or I belong too.Give it a rest go out and do the best you can.WAHHHHHHHHH she is a plater Wahhhhhhh i am AFA wahhhhhhhhh I am union really folks if you have a successful business over the years be happy and great full,Some people would enjoy having a successful business.I belong to the working mans bar association.Now go ahead and rip me apart.:cool:

We can make a living shoeing horses and still have time to do stuff here, it just takes organization and planning. Were not shoeing horses like those old timers did 40 years ago or running our businesses the way they did back then, so who cares what they or their little followers (you) think. So Bababoohooey, go do your thing and we'll do ours. No big deal, don't get your tighty whiteys in a wad.:eek::D

[ladyblacksmith]

[QUOTE=bababoey38;158821]Nothing happened to it, thats what everyone does. Thats part of the problem in that the owners are not educated concerning the standards of the different associations, therefore, when they think they are getting a journeyman farrier, they may actually be getting a journeyman farrier who got his journeyman certification from a lesser association and in reality the "journeyman" may not know which end of the nail to drive. Everyone is going out and doing the best they can, but that doesn't mean we cannot have a conversation. I am sure we are all gratefull. I'm not sure what the wahhhh means or what it is referring to.did ya'll have a meeting this evenning? I don't think anyone wants to rip you apart, you have a right to express your opinion

Correct! that's what I mean on the "journeyman" part of the conversation.:)

[bababoey38]

WAHHHHHHH = crying and whining I do agree with you 100% about running a business now than 40 years ago.All I am trying to say is when was the last time a new customer asked anyone that would be a new farrier in the barn what association do you belong too?:eek:

[Just passin through~]

What ever happen to go out make a living SHOE HORSES.In my opinion I and most horse owners could give a rats behind what organization you or I belong too.Give it a rest go out and do the best you can.WAHHHHHHHHH she is a plater Wahhhhhhh i am AFA wahhhhhhhhh I am union really folks if you have a successful business over the years be happy and great full,Some people would enjoy having a successful business.I belong to the working mans bar association.Now go ahead and rip me apart.:cool:

BABA,how can you talk like that and call yourself BABABOOY? All these people
belong,and when you say things like that,they get mad.If you want to remain friends with these guys,you better say what they want to hear,or you will be ignored~

[Rick Talbert]

WAHHHHHHH = crying and whining I do agree with you 100% about running a business now than 40 years ago.All I am trying to say is when was the last time a new customer asked anyone that would be a new farrier in the barn what association do you belong too?:eek:

why are you always crying?
belonging to an association is not an achievement, it just means that you paid a dollar amount in dues. Certification is an achievement, but it is not pursued with the expectation that the accomplishment will earn you business. It is pursued as a personal goal for farriers to better themselves through the experience. Those who have attained various certification levels in certain associations have a degree of respect for others who have taken on the challenge, due to the standard of difficulty and the professional goal oriented attitude of these farriers who tend to typically take their profession much more seriously than those who sit in the peanut gallery and make excuses.

[bababoey38]

OK MR Talbert so what you are saying is if I or other to be Farriers were to pay allot of money in these organizations we would be more respected by other farriers?My main ????? is why cant all these organizations just put there heads together and work as one.It almost looks like the Bloods and the Crips the way certain organizations go at each other.:eek:

[George Geist]

OK MR Talbert so what you are saying is if I or other to be Farriers were to pay allot of money in these organizations we would be more respected by other farriers?My main ????? is why cant all these organizations just put there heads together and work as one.It almost looks like the Bloods and the Crips the way certain organizations go at each other.:eek:
On the national scene I tend to agree with you. Best thing is to be involved with a state or local organization. Their the best thing out there right now especially those few that aren't affiliated with anybody.
George

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

bababoey38, posting anonymously in the political section, in gray

What ever happen to go out make a living SHOE HORSES.

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, wore it out.

In my opinion I and most horse owners could give a rats behind what organization you or I belong too.

Did the horse owners elect you spokesman?

Give it a rest go out and do the best you can.

Or what?

WAHHHHHHHHH she is a plater Wahhhhhhh i am AFA wahhhhhhhhh I am union really folks if you have a successful business over the years be happy and great full, Some people would enjoy having a successful business.

Sir (Madam? Miss? Ms?), has it ever occurred to your androgenous self that some of the more experienced folks on this forum might enjoy having a successful business (or, two), yet feel an obligation to try to better the state of farriery in the US in some small way, somewhat in the nature of payback? As I see it, anything from helping a kid starting out to bouncing technical stuff off one another comes under the heading of advancing knowledge and is of some value. The phrase, "Giving back," is overused to the point of being trite, but it works for me.

Now go ahead and rip me apart.

No need, you've already self-immolated.:)

[Rick Talbert]

[QUOTE]OK MR Talbert so what you are saying is if I or other to be Farriers were to pay allot of money in these organizations we would be more respected by other farriers?No, thats not at all what I said, in fact, I said just the opposite. Paying dues to an association and being a member is not an achievement. My main ????? is why cant all these organizations just put there heads together and work as one.It almost looks like the Bloods and the Crips the way certain organizations go at each other.:eek:that is a reasonable question, if that was your main question, why didn't you just ask it without all the sarcasm? the answer in my opinion is that this is not a utopian society where-in everyone has the same objectives. I'm not so sure we would be better off with one association. The different associations seem to attract like minded farriers and suit their needs better.

[Cyber Farrier]

bababoey38, posting anonymously in the political section, in gray

Right you are Tom. My error.

OK, listen up babaoey38, all posts in the Political Forum have to be signed with your real full name. Any future posts you put in this forum that aren't signed will be removed.

Baron

[SlowShoe]

Right you are Tom. My error.

OK, listen up babaoey38, all posts in the Political Forum have to be signed with your real full name. Any future posts you put in this forum that aren't signed will be removed.

Baron

Is that so te political elite know who to 'round up'?

;)

[Tom Stovall, CJF]

SlowShoe in gray, Baron in brown

"...All posts in the Political Forum have to be signed with your real full name. Any future posts you put in this forum that aren't signed will be removed."

Is that so te political elite know who to 'round up'?

Did you ever consider the similarity between one's expressing a political opinion while cloaked in anonymity and one's spewing racial vitriol while wearing a white robe and hood? While there's a difference in degree, the principle is exactly the same: the object is to hide one's identity in order to avoid personal responsibility for one's opinion.

More likely, the rule was made to insure that anyone who desires to express a political opinion should feel strongly enough about the value of that opinion to take personal responsibility for that expression by signing their posts with their true given and family name. Politics at any level are personal - and if someone it too intellectually cowardly to take personal responsibility for their opinion, then most likely their opinion ain't worth a bucket of warm spit. (Apologies to the shade of JNG.) :)

[bababoey38]

I forgot about that rule Baron.The responses were great and thank you for those that replied.

Mark Carlone
A guy just wanting to learn.

[BPethick]

bababoey38, Mark Carlone,

If I am correct, you live in NJ?
How many GSHA Meetings have you attended?

The GSHA has had monthly meetings with a Clinic catering to young and old guys/girls wanting to learn.
The GSHA is a Chapter of the AFA.

Where have you been?

[bababoey38]

Hmmmmm Mr Pethick [I] have tried calling you a number of times and you never ever return a phone call I understand you and others are busy but heck how can someone get somewhere if he has no information.And you wonder why some people feel a bit bitter about these organizations.:rolleyes:

[BPethick]

Hmmmmm Mr Pethick [I] have tried calling you a number of times and you never ever return a phone call I understand you and others are busy but heck how can someone get somewhere if he has no information.And you wonder why some people feel a bit bitter about these organizations.:rolleyes:

I did return your phone calls and left messages, I believe it was a girlfriends number?

You were calling about a helper position not the GSHA.

Have you PM'd me here or sent an email?

[bababoey38]

Yes Mr Pethick I have sent you messages here and yes I have sent Emails.Yes calls were for a helper and calls were about the group also.You are a very respected gentleman in the horse world.Maybe one day we can get together and chat.
Mark Carlone

[BPethick]

Yes Mr Pethick I have sent you messages here and yes I have sent Emails.Yes calls were for a helper and calls were about the group also.You are a very respected gentleman in the horse world.Maybe one day we can get together and chat.
Mark Carlone

Mark,

I have never received a email or PM from you.

I am not too hard to find.
I am at all my accounts on the same day every week and at the Oldwick General Store every morning.

My email is below.