17 year old Halter horse Club & Navicular?

[Julie Plaster]

I have not seen this horse yet.

I am scheduled to work on 17 year old former Halter Horse on Tuesday. The owner says historically, the horse is the most comfortable up on his toes, but has some problems. Has tried everything short of nerving.

Farriers, without seeing this horse, what thoughts does this scenario stir up?
Any input?

Thanks in advance,
Julie :-)

[Bill Adams]

Horses I've never seen are the ones I am most expert about, so you are fortunate I'm on the case.
My rule of thumb is to provide sole and frog suport, mainly by not removeing much, and keeping the brake over back.
The hope for soundness, edss, natural balance site has it laid out very nice, and there are other "theories" that complemnt NB and visa-versa.

I wouldn't get too radical without a vet or xrays, and if he's lame now be sure a third party knows about that. On the other hand, you could be the hero here.

My $0.02,
Bill

[shoesofiron]

Breakover-schmakeover (sorry Bill).
I've never seen this horse either so I know.
See how close this is:
17, and a former Halter animal... which, loosely translated means he is very upright in his shoulder, post legged behind, with stumpy pasterns and since he's probably registered out the wazoo, the result of breeding to a T-bred line that has underslung heels. Maybe, maybe not, but he'll be upright.
Probably has some sidebone and/or ringbone with an osselot thrown in for good measure so yes, he'll be more comfortable the less he flexes his fetlock ... since he hasn't done anything but carry around a halter and lead rope most of his life... after all, whoever heard of a halter horse actually being ridden? So his sedentary lifestyle has led him to a point where, now in his later years, coupled with his poor conformation, he's fairly miserable most of the time. Oh sure, he has some good days where he trots around the field and even kicks up his heels once in a great while. And those times make the owner feel like the old guy is still able to enjoy a good life. It makes them forget the rest of the days where he limps around and doesn't do much beside mow the pasture.
Let's get a quote from the AAEP:
"There are a wide range of cir***stances under which euthanasia may be considered. Among some of the most common are:
Incurable progressive disease
Chronic lameness
Undue suffering for any reason"

There are some others but I'm trying to keep this short.

What is the likelihood of recovery or at least an acceptable return to usefulness?
Is the horse suffering?
Will the horse require continuous medication for the relief of pain for the remainder of its life?

Okay Scott...you're a little overboard here...right?
We'll see.
She asked if there were any scenarios this conjurs up and unfortunately, in the real world we're seeing too many people trying to "fix" animals that should never have been bred into this world... all out of their "love" for the horse.
If we really loved them, we'd breed only well conformed animals no matter what their papers say.
You can't shoe a horse sound.
But, down off my soapbox.
Try a well supported foot with a bar shoe to reduce the torque in the hoof capsule.
Put a nice perimeter fit on him so he can use all of the God-given anatomy he has left but you might use half round stock or safe all the edges.
And pads. He'll probably need pads. Maybe some Equi-Build in them for added support.
My money's on the happy juice though.
Whenever owners tell you up front without you ever seeing the horse that he's always uncomfortable, they're just trying to hang on to the vestiges of a good memory. When they get to the point where they're ready to change farriers and/or vets because nothing is working, they're desperate for the fountain of youth.
Which, as Vasco DeGamma discovered, does not exist.. or was that Cortez?
(And a note... I can't believe the software on here locks out the word cir***stances?... man. That spam really musta done a number on this place).

[Bill Adams]

Scott,
Maybe I don't know from brakeover, but Ponce de Leon was looking for ye ol' fountain that he never (nor I) found.
I figure setting the toe back or rocking or rolling or half round stock etc.has got to take strain off if the horse brakes over a bit sooner and easer.
Another $0.02,
Bill

[mwmyersdvm]

For me, controlling breakover has been the key to keeping these horses as comfortable as is possible. (Notice I didn't say anything about being "sound".)
For optimal safety, I would look at this horse, watch him go, and then recommend to the owner that he have a veterinarian get some current radiographs (the ones taken 8 years ago are not applicable) and work up a game plan. It would not be prudent to shoe this horse without recommending doing it right the first time. If the owner can't afford it, you may want to consider the other alternative presented. The owner needs to understand (and he may have already been told this numerous times) that this situation is not repairable, only controllable (at best) and will be costly.
You may have a problem with a veterinarian knowing how to properly take flms and then correctly interpret them. If you need further assistance, I can be reached through the consulting area of this site.

[shoesofiron]

You may have a problem with a veterinarian .... If you need further assistance, I can be reached through the consulting area of this site.

Good answer doc. And if there's room in the pot for two more cents, I had to make three special trips to people's farms this year.
All three were new (and probably one time) clients that had horses on their place that needed to be sent home a long time ago.
But I had to tell them.
One had its tongue hanging out the side of its mouth and was about 5 mm from punching through the bottom of its foot. It had had a previous stroke almost two years prior, could barely stand and hobbled.. . you couldn't call it walking.. . to it's stall twice a day for a handful of grain.
One was born with a grade 4 club.. at least, and endured a year of trying to learn what it's like to carry a saddle and a person.. and not limp. thankfully though, the owners had the guts to take that step and humanely end her life of constant pain at the tender age of three.
I never gave out awards for good decisions before but if I did, I think I might have to name it after them.
The last one was a grand old horse who belonged to a local vet. He had the unfortunate fate to fall into the hands of people who wanted to keep that vets memory alive through him, almost to the point where they didn't care whether he could walk or not, so long as he was still alive. they just loved that horse.
My point being, if this has one, is, "Why does the farrier have to be the one who has to tell people he never met 'sorry, he's at the end of his road'".
Isn't that the vets job?
Don't get me wrong.
I consider it an honor to be someone who is called in to bring comfort to a creature who, by his very existence, is a noble and valiant asset to this universe. To be there in their time of real need of human intervention.
I just wish you guys would (or could) put the brakes on some of this breeding that's going on.
I think we'd all have a lot fewer headaches.

[Dave Purves]

18 year old halter horse. My first question would be how did you keep him sound this long? His feet I'm sure are at least two sizes too small for his body. He probably also weighs 1000lbs more than he should. These poor guys for their whole life are left in a stall, fed as much grain as they'll eat and only let out to get on the tread mill for an hour and right back in thier cell they go. As baby's they are trimmed to correct any leg deviations which are perfectly normal as youngsters but not accepted in the show ring. Then the farriers are asked many times to stand them up, giving the impression that the feet are smaller and the body bigger. After so many years of that the foot and leg break down. Navicular, or caudal heel pain, sidebone, ringbone, osselets, SL problems and contraction of the flexor tendons are all seen and ussually in some form or fashion present in these guys the day they get retired and turned out to pasture. I once watched a friend of ours turn out a 15 yr old halter horse that they bought for their son to ride. He was cheap. Anyway they brought him home and turned him out in the pasture. He walked around a little realized he was free and took off, 15 min later he was dead lame. They put him to sleep the next day. He ruptured SL, tore the SFFT and after some xrays found out that he barely had a navicular bone.
The problem isn't just breeding it is also management. Some people just shouldn't own horses, and then get to be world champions using these managment techniques.
just remember to "stand em' up"
Dave Purves CF :confused:

[Gary Hill]

There is a whole lot of Truth in both your statements ,Scott and Dave! One of my EX-halter clients just Foundered her third horse, due to her Love for the animals? We all know how useless these animals are, but there is a lot of people that think they are the perfect example of what a horse should be? I wish people had to take a Test to own horses,it might filter out some of these animal lovers! Love these new boards! Gary

[Jack Evers]

Some years ago while working on an Impessive bred gelding halter horse (should we have halter classes for non breeding animalls or maybe only for non breeding animals?), I told the owners that this jerk really needed some repeated applications of wet saddle blankets and was told that " the judges said they could only fault him for being a little rough on the top line and he shouldn't be ridden and accentuate that". I replied that " when someone who is supposed to be picking an ideal quarter horse (primarily a saddle horse) says that the top of a horse shouldn't resemble the bottom of a saddle, they have misplaced their priorities." These peple now have performance horses rather than halter horses.
Jack

[Julie Plaster]

No radiographs, no vet. I tried. This is what I ended up with. Yes, he is so heavy. He moves pretty good at a trot to the left. He lowers his head for about four strides in anticipation, then a slight consistant head bob to the right. We'll see what the future brings. Thank you so much for taking the time for the input. You are all very much appreciated!

Thanks,
Julie :-)

[Julie Plaster]

Please critique the shoeing. I really want to help the horse. I don't want to be his limitation. I may get to get a vet and radiographs involved, however, I need to let the owner to soak the reality of it all.

I just received the new issue of Hoofcare and Lameness Mag. Really good issue!

Criticism at the Show Horse world. Page 5 has news about an add that Veterinarian Robert Eustace placed in Horse & Hound warning of health risks, particularly of laminitis, associated with equine obesity. It had a picture of a hand gun and two bullets. The picture caption reads "There are various ways of dealing with hoof problems. Unfortunatlely this is one of them".... "British insurance agencies are considering canceling laminitis coverage for show horses." "Also in the UK, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals successfully prosecuted an owner who knowingly over-fed fat foundered ponies."

The owner inflicted obesity creates so many various problems. Made me feel a little validated.

Thanks,
Julie :-)

[Double C Forge]

I bet the magazine and the vet recieved some flak over that ad, but I love to see someone run an ad that actually tells the truth in a non-hidden form like that...............

for some ppl its the only true way to get the point across to them...........

[shoesofiron]

I'd bring that horses heels back and try him. If that doesn't work, you can always wedge him back up where he's comfortable.
AND... he'll have some good caudal support to boot.

[Julie Plaster]

I wanted to bring the heels back more too. I've been trying to follow the sole plane. If it looks new and shinny, isn't that considered live sole? Can false sole be new and shinny? I've been doing pretty good on horses with trying to follow what I think the sole plane is. Could it be that this guy has been jacked up so high for so long that that is where it really is? I really want radiographs. (I'm hopeful) I hate guessing. He is pretty contracted in the heels.

Thanks,
Julie :-)

[coreen harris]

This looks real similar to a mare I have myself. When I got her 3 years ago the bottom of her hoofs were smaller than her tops she was that contracted and upright. The heels on the right were 3/4 inch apart, the left 1 inch, almost no frog. Xray showed nav bone winging and lollipops on the right, just lollipops on the left. Had to go easy on the heels, dropping them too fast can cause incredible pain, however I look back and wonder if this is "normal" as the hoof wakes up. Getting radical with her breakover really helped move things along, she decontracted 50% in a few mos. I spoke with another natural trimmer about her, and she has seen nav horses and noticed a trend - anywhere frm weeks to a few mos into a new program they will go sore, but come out of it with perseverence and move on to have more progress.
Now, 2 1/2 years later, my mare appears quite sound in pasture, going on 6 sound mos now. I may start exercising her again, but I'm a big chicken. Her hoofs will never be fully decontracted, but she is happy! Her hoofs now are wider at the bottom and in the appropriate places, she has as much frog as can be expected - I'd say 75%-90% functional. She requires a trim/touchup every 4 weeks. For about a year she would be a bit sore for a few days after each trim - again this may be normal for nav horses - but with each trim its been less and less, and its been 1/2 year since that problem.
This is a Paso Fino mare, who was subjected to the terrible upright and unnatural shoeing practices that run rampant in this breed, esp show horses. There is nothing about her conformation to suggest a tendancy to nav, it was totally farrier induced. I have not repeated exrays yet, going to wait for her to have this next foal - have had one already and he is doing GREAT in the hoof dept.

Folks with contracted hoofs and nav syndrome/disease need to realize that this is a long haul operation, it takes time to return the hoof to some semblance of normalcy.

[Ronald Aalders]

Although it has been said by others before me, I would urge you to lower heels a lot. This kind of (interphalangeal) rotation needs to be derotated too!
If not, all you do it load the apex of P3 and not the heels, the spot where you want any load to be! This is very important!

You need X-rays too just to find out if your trimming aligned P1, P2 and P3 which is necessary before you get to the next step of shoeing, trying to make the horse as comfortable as possible.

Navicular is always a little tricky as far as the ideal shoe is concerned. Basically your "toolkit" should contain wedges, support devices (e.g. eggbars) and break over changes. What to use is really something you find through trail and error with each individual horse. Navicular is not something you can cure, but you can control it, if you're not too unlucky that is.

Looking at the foot and after you properly derotated the foot, my choice definetely would be a aluminum wedged straight bar shoe. I would shape this shoe "banana wise" the "belly" below the center of articulation. Without X-rays go for the widest part of this (club!)foot. Don't overdo the belly (or roll) a moderate one will do. (I've put a picture in of a foot shod that way, for another reason as you'll notice)

Thanks to kind advise I got more away from using egg bars in such cases. Eggbars support the hell out of a foot....... Wedges tend to stimulate contraction of the muscle attached to the DDFT. Sofar I have had amazing results with this banana concept.

Hope this helps a little too.

Ronald Aalders

[Equine Podiatry]

I give it a go... (please don't shoot me down for trimming the picture) ;)
I see this horse is very uncomfortable in the heel area (only happy when jacked up). Have you considered that it might actually be the heel height, the high bars and the contraction that is causing the pain?
Of course this horse would need additional physio for having had such a steep alignment for so long.
There are no x-rays, but I have guessed where P3 might be pointing to.

[Julie Plaster]

Equine Podiatry,

"Have you considered that it might actually be the heel height, the high bars and the contraction that is causing the pain?"


Yes, I think we agree there. The owner tells me that another farrier addressed the same issues, trying to open up the foot and bring the heels down. He said it made the horse so much worse and did not want to revisit that. From conversation, I suspect it was done a bit too aggressively. I have wondered if there are issues higher up the body as well. I can't confirm, nor dismiss. There again, we need that vet workup. Scheduling with client this morning, he did tell me the horse is doing much better.

I liked the photos that Ronald Aalders posted. If it is tendon contraction, should the "banana" shoe concept be an option? I have not been exposed to this shoe with any "history". Nor have I done any "homework" on it yet. My lack of experience there, makes me reluctant.

The edited pictures are great! What software? Easy?

I do so appreciate the kindness, time and effort everyone has taken to read, provide input, posting and editing pictures with such great care! All of it makes me feel good about shoeing. Even the differences bring questions and answers to the table. The horse benefits, that why I love what we do.

The rain is clearing. Horses waiting...

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!

Julie :-)

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi Julie,

Your last post got me worried a little. In cases like this you do not just act because we think its a good idea. You get a vet in and, if you think you need him or her, an experienced shoer. You can not just drop heels without X rays, no matter how nice you've drawn underlying structures on a foot!

As to the lowering of the heels. I think its vital you lower the heels. BUT in cases like this you can never just lower heels and leave it at that. You also have to find a way to ease breakover! You may even find that after lowering the heels (derotation) you have to wedge the foot up again to ease DDFT pull. A (not the only way) way to ease breakover would be a banana shoe, I have had very good results in helping out the lower grades clubfeet with that concept.


Ronald Aalders

[Equine Podiatry]

I understand that tendons can't contract (and they can stretch only minimally): In this high heel situation, the tendon is actually slack....(you can see it your picture of the chestnut).
I'd try the heel down approach again. Taking away the cause does not necessarily give immediate soundness - there may be some inflammation that needs to subside first. Healing takes time.
Good luck with this fellow.

[calshoer]

Tall heels that GREW that way are not causing a slack tendon.
On the other hand,heels will GROW tall if there is too much pull in the tendon.
Tight flexor tensons can be a result of either man made too long toes, or tight flexor MUSCLES. Flexor MUSCLES can (and do) INVOLUNTARILY tighten in response to pain.
Sources of pain that causes contraction of the flexor muscle could be :
pulling on the DDFT where it attaches under the coffin bone,
or coffin joint pain due to improper landing ,
or soft tissue heel pain from improperly trimmed, curled or underrun heels,
or impar ligament pain
or something in the growth pattern of the foal , man made or genetic
to name just a few.
To try to fix this by just lowering the heels (even a little at a time) without looking at the whole picture is ludricous. The tall heels are not the source of the problem.They are just a symptom.
You should look at WHY they grow so tall and fix THAT. Trimming the heels without looking deeper into the mechanics will only increase the tension in the tendon (because it is not slack to begin with) and increase whatever internal stresses caused the pain and club foot in the first place.
As well there are going to be some permenant changes in the coffin bone shape ,size and orientation in the capsule.You can not get a hoof to get wider than the bonewill allow.

Also, the bone may be somewhat permanently "stuck" in its orientation to the other bones .After this many years the soft tissue attachments around and between the bones may be shortened, have adhesions and so on and trying to force alignment could easily damage tissues and cause more pain. Or abscessing as those newly traumatized tissues slough out of the foot.

In a 17 year old horse with that much long term deformation ,my goals are to to gain comfort and *some* improvement in the quality of the foot.The mechanics of doing this include DECREASING tension and stress in whatever tissues were stresed originally. And that means understanding how the foot has attempted to do that on its own, helping it do that,but at the same time helping it tomaintain better hoof capsule form and function.The fact he is more comfortable up on his toes should tel lyou something. He can still be up on his toes without all that hoof wall in the heels limiting function.

Sure, lowering the heels is part of the equation to get the hoof capsule into better function. But doing so without the option of raising it back up to equalize the tension in the tendon never works. Unless you want to cause tissue damage, abscessing and unnecessary long term pain.
Some folks may think that is OK but I sure don't.

I would lower the heels only as far as he live sole plane, then watch him stand awhile . If he cannot get the heels to the ground easily,stand squarely , and land somewhat heel firstat a walk, there is too much tension in the DDFT. If that is the case after the trim, I always put wedges back on them. Wedges do NOT cause heel contraction IF the frog is loaded AND the heels have been trimmed down first.
It does not load the toe more to wedge a foot. Rather it loads the HEELS more. Standing (or landing) toe first because they cannot get the heel to the ground due to tight flexor tendon improperly loads the toe. And the coffin joint, And the navicular bone. And the impar ligament. And causes more pain.Which can contract the flexor muscle even more, rotating the coffin bone down more and causing more heel growth.
.
Breakover point is also vital to relieve tension in the flexor muscle and tendon as well. And to insure the impar ligament, navicular bone and coffin joint do not get stresed at the moment prior to breakover. Often the breakover can not be placed far enough under the foot barefoot to be theraputic.
Some choices could be a correctly applied rock and roll shoe, NB with breakover properly placed,(either case get lateral X-rays to guide your breakover placement) with or without wedge pads as the horse tells you, EDSS with it's adjustable rails (which ease breakover medial laterally as well), A full roller motion shoe,etc.
The key is to insure the horse is breaking over easily all around the foot, landing heel first, AND standing squarely and comfortable with his trimmed heels *supported by the ground* even if that takes extra wedges to fill the gap between the heels and the ground. His movement wil tell you if he is comfortable.I have occasionally used two big wedge pads stacked together the first time to gain comfort amd correct movement so the whole horse can begin to change. If he is comfortable, the flexor MUSCLES can begin to relax, the whole proprioception and neurology of muscles and movement can change.
After some time the heels will allow more trimming as the foot releases sole material in the rear instead of growing it. And they will never release sole in the heels and allow more lowering until he starts to *land * on them. Otherwise the heels just keep growing back . You are not going to be able to change the fact he is club footed. He is 17 for gods sake. But you should be able to get him comfortable. The fact he is better up on his toes should tell you something about the mechanics.
There's my 2cents. I'll get off the soapbox now.
Patty .

[Dave Purves]

Hi Patty, I was wondering if you ever have problems with horses like this, already "clubby", a large horse with too "small" of a foot. I guess I question lessening the weight bearing surface of the foot, by wedging and bringing the breakover point back? We all know that you can make a foot bigger by taking more heel off and make it smaller by leaving heel, essentially by wedging a horse up, you leave the heel or make the ground surface of the shod foot smaller, then if you bring the toe of the shoe back I'm assuming with an NB or similar application you make weight bearing that much smaller. With a horse that presents in the fashion that this horse has, do you find that by simply making the bearing surface of the foot smaller you add stress to the already overstressed foot? I know you could use some sort of frog support, but even then is that better or worse than slightly wedging, fitting a shoe full and using frog support? I just can't get over making the bearing surface of the foot "smaller" when there is already lameness present. Please clarify this for me.
thanks
Dave Purves CF :)

[Julie Plaster]

Wedges. Still loading the heels by bringing the ground to the foot. Reducing tension on the deep digital. Right?

Julie :-)

[Margo98203]

Regarding signs of the sole plane, most but not all of the time you will find that the sole plane at the toe will be equal to the true apex of the frog....but it still varies from foot to foot and what their individual case is. If it is one that holds true, then you can then follow it back. Hope this helps.
Margo

[Equine Podiatry]

That's nice Coreen :)
---------------------------
I'd like to make a few comments to Patty's essay though: (Not sure yet how to quote, so I cut and past.....hope that's o.k. - I'll be a pest and comment, starting with *)

(I have to post it in two parts as well..... sending it all in one makes the file too big.....sorry......
here I go......

"Tall heels that GREW that way are not causing a slack tendon."
*Of cause they grew... where else would they come from? Question is why weren't they trimmed? The posture the horse assumes, causes the tendon to slack. Can't you see it? In the pictures the horse(s) are almost extensor bearing.

"On the other hand,heels will GROW tall if there is too much pull in the tendon."
* You mean when the horse is not loading the heel?

"Tight flexor tensons can be a result of either man made too long toes, or tight flexor MUSCLES. Flexor MUSCLES can (and do) INVOLUNTARILY tighten in response to pain."
* Correct.

"Sources of pain that causes contraction of the flexor muscle could be :
pulling on the DDFT where it attaches under the coffin bone,"
* I am a little fuzzy on that ??? What is pulling, exactly?

"or coffin joint pain due to improper landing"
* hmm..yeah,

"or soft tissue heel pain from improperly trimmed, curled or underrun heels",
absolutely -

"or impar ligament pain"
*yep

"or something in the growth pattern of the foal , man made or genetic
to name just a few."
* Yes.

"To try to fix this by just lowering the heels (even a little at a time) without looking at the whole picture is ludricous. The tall heels are not the source of the problem.They are just a symptom."
* I do not agree there. In my world "the pain" is the symptom and I have to find the reason for it. The reason might be one or the reasons you mentioned above - or a combination of them. Or something you haven't mentioned.
I will try to identify the problem and then improve the situation by trimming to achieve the best physiologically and anatomically correct hoof. With complementary physio work I will help the horse to get over any muscular/soft tissue adjustments (normally a lot of release therapy and walking exercises).
The other more obvious reason for lowering the heel would be to bring the bone column in a better alignment to start with, which would also take the stress off the dorsal connection as it would de-rotate the cb. - Just to name a few advantages.

"You should look at WHY they grow so tall and fix THAT. "
*That's exactly what I do.

"Trimming the heels without looking deeper into the mechanics will only increase the tension in the tendon (because it is not slack to begin with) and increase whatever internal stresses caused the pain and club foot in the first place.
* Yes, in a club foot, too. That's right. But we didn't talk club foot yet. However, the tendon - unless the whole standing apparatus is completely out of balance and the horse has pulled up it's shoulders, is actually slack. (touch it) At least in my world. (and in the picture of the chestnut). In a steep alignment the fetlock doesn't receive sufficient force to stretch the flexor tendon.

"As well there are going to be some permenant changes in the coffin bone shape ,size and orientation in the capsule.You can not get a hoof to get wider than the bonewill allow."
* Permanent changes in the cb can be prevented. Not sure what you mean with the rest.

"Also, the bone may be somewhat permanently "stuck" in its orientation to the other bones ."
* Unless it's actually "glued", it isn't stuck. The moment the joint is moving, the bone alignment changes.

"After this many years the soft tissue attachments around and between the bones may be shortened, have adhesions and so on and trying to force alignment could easily damage tissues and cause more pain."
*I think it is reasonable to think that if something can change one way, it can change back (providing the damage is not devastating). After all it's still living tissue that replaces itself continiously. It may take time. Not many peple have time.

"Or abscessing as those newly traumatized tissues slough out of the foot."
*The body will have to get rid of the OLD, existing damage first and slough that. But yes, abscessing is part of renewing and healing. Out with the old ****, in with the new....., so to speak.

"In a 17 year old horse with that much long term deformation ,my goals are to to gain comfort and *some* improvement in the quality of the foot."
* That's a good start.

"The mechanics of doing this include DECREASING tension and stress in whatever tissues were stresed originally."
*Correct.

"And that means understanding how the foot has attempted to do that on its own, helping it do that,but at the same time helping it tomaintain better hoof capsule form and function.The fact he is more comfortable up on his toes should tel lyou something.
* Yes!!! It tells me that he has pain in the heel- and I want to help him to be able to use all of his foot, not preserve the pathological situation.
This is where we both get muddled up, I guess. :confused:

"He can still be up on his toes without all that hoof wall in the heels limiting function."
*Lost me

"Sure, lowering the heels is part of the equation to get the hoof capsule into better function."
*Yeeesss???

" But doing so without the option of raising it back up to equalize the tension in the tendon never works. Unless you want to cause tissue damage, abscessing and unnecessary long term pain.
* This does not make sense to me. I lower the heel to wedge it back up?
Why not leave it as it was then?

"Some folks may think that is OK but I sure don't."
*That's fine. I just think that it is more painful and disabling to the horse to be walking permanently hoisted up with consistantly flexed muscles and other associated problems than a short time of discomfort that can be aided with alternative therapies?

CONTINUES.......

[Equine Podiatry]

....CONTINUES... :D


"I would lower the heels only as far as he live sole plane, then watch him stand awhile . If he cannot get the heels to the ground easily,stand squarely , and land somewhat heel firstat a walk, there is too much tension in the DDFT. If that is the case after the trim, I always put wedges back on them. "
* Lower him gradually, you mean? Fair enough.
With physio however, you can achieve quite a lot in the first sessions Loosening the muscles - then it's walking......

"Wedges do NOT cause heel contraction IF the frog is loaded AND the heels have been trimmed down first."
* Ok. I don't shoe, so I believe you ;)

"It does not load the toe more to wedge a foot."
* How come? According to simply physics, it does..... Gravity?

"Rather it loads the HEELS more. Standing (or landing) toe first because they cannot get the heel to the ground due to tight flexor tendon improperly loads the toe. And the coffin joint, And the navicular bone. And the impar ligament. And causes more pain.Which can contract the flexor muscle even more, rotating the coffin bone down more and causing more heel growth.
* Sooooooooo???? WHY do it???
(Besides that this confuses me a little, as I have to imagine a fused immobile joint-less bone column to picture what you describe).

"Breakover point is also vital to relieve tension in the flexor muscle and tendon as well."
*Yes, finding correct break-over is very important......

"And to insure the impar ligament (*you like that one, I noticed ;) ), navicular bone and coffin joint do not get stresed at the moment prior to breakover".
*Yes.

"Often the breakover can not be placed far enough under the foot barefoot to be theraputic.
*What exactly would be the****utic to place the b/o far under the foot? If too far under it may cause extensor problems! Have seen a few like that already and was wondering what that was suppose to achieve...
I am learning....

"Some choices could be a correctly applied rock and roll shoe, NB with breakover properly placed,(either case get lateral X-rays to guide your breakover placement) with or without wedge pads as the horse tells you, EDSS with it's adjustable rails (which ease breakover medial laterally as well), A full roller motion shoe,etc."
* Sounds groovy.....Can't comment on this - I don't shoe.

"The key is to insure the horse is breaking over easily all around the foot, landing heel first, AND standing squarely and comfortable with his trimmed heels *supported by the ground*
* yes (I like the expression "supported by the ground". Just imagine there wasn't any...)

..."even if that takes extra wedges to fill the gap between the heels and the ground."
* ...which will hopefully, gradually decrease in size as he adapts to the new situation???

"His movement wil tell you if he is comfortable."
*Yes - as long as he doesn't fall on his face ;)

"I have occasionally used two big wedge pads stacked together the first time to gain comfort amd correct movement so the whole horse can begin to change. If he is comfortable, the flexor MUSCLES can begin to relax, the whole proprioception and neurology of muscles and movement can change."
* That was nicely said

"After some time the heels will allow more trimming as the foot releases sole material in the rear instead of growing it."
*I have never noticed that... it's released not grown? How? what?

"And they will never release sole in the heels and allow more lowering until he starts to *land * on them. Otherwise the heels just keep growing back."
* Lost me there

"You are not going to be able to change the fact he is club footed."
* I don't think he is..... he is just very steep and contracted.... Do you see joint adaptation?

"He is 17 for gods sake."
* Which could be the the better half of his prime years

" But you should be able to get him comfortable."
* I'd aim for better than that.

" The fact he is better up on his toes should tell you something about the mechanics.
* Yes: He needs to come down on his heels. (But we said that)

"There's my 2cents. I'll get off the soapbox now.
Patty ."
*Hopp.... I'm off it too. Thank you. Nice discussion.

Hope you don't mind that I used your elaborations to convert it into a conversation. I am having great fun!
Geez, it's a long post now! Sorry......

[calshoer]

There is a lot of stuff in the last post so I will keep the replies to a few high points. Then perhaps later individual biomechanical questions can be broken down onto individual new threads somwhere ,( ONE at time) for ease and clarity.
EP, even though you will not tell us who you are or what your length or level of training is, it is apparent that you are not a farrier but rather a barefoot trimmer who subscribes strongly to Strasser theory. If you are so knowledgeabele and skilled you should be proud to let everyone know who and where you are.
If you are indeed not a farrier, since this area of the forum is for posting by farriers and vets only , perhaps this particular dicussuon is best taken to the owner's forum or the "owners wanting to barefoot their horses" bulletin board.
I'll let Baron decide.
Meantime I will only touch on one or two important points.

Halfway through the discussion you state
.."but we didn't talk club foot yet".
Geesh. I thought we were discusing THIS case. You state he is not club footed but just "steep and contracted" ,with joint changes. What then is your definition of a "Club foot"? Long term steep and contracted would sure fit into my definition.
So reread the thing with ONLY club feet in mind and maybe some of it will make more sense.
There are a couple of things I will never agree with you so don't even try. .
You say the tendon is slack, I say without being there you cannot tell for sure but from my LONG professional experience it is likely that when the heels are allowed to grow to the height nature dictates (at that particular time) due to the forces involved, and uncorrected for so many years, the tendon will be in normal tension ,not slack. Therefore if you trim those heels to gain better hoof capsule function (frog support,foot expansion) without adding the option of wedging the foot back up you will tighten the tendon so the heels can not get to the ground without causing tendon attachment pulling and sometimes debilitating and pain. And further damge to the tisues in the foot. In the case of trimming club feet, If the heels get trimmed then the horse is not landing HEEL first, you have created too much DDFT tension. In this horses case it appears that without adequate wedge he cannot even get the heels on the ground comfortably standing.
Second, you will never convince me that the abscesing that the Strasser trim sometimes causes is from OLD dead tissue.There is not a shred of proof that that much dead tissue exists in a hoof prior to the trim. This has been discussed in the old BB;s many times and I will not discuss it again. It is in most minds pure bunk.
Third, you cannot fix everything. Yes, joints CAN become "glued". I have even known a horses with long term tendon and muscle contraction who had the check ligament, then the DDFT cut in the same surgery and they STILL could not straighten the coffin joint, even with the horse fully anethestised and relaxed. Tell me that the joint was not stuck. I have seen Xrays where the navicular bone was fused(bone to bone)to the distal end of the second pastern bonebecause it was folded over that way too many years. And I have had the opportunity to see coffin bones deteriorated on the soalr margin re Xrayed over several years. They do not regenerate very much.
In a 17 year old horse who has been club footed for that long, that bone is NOT going to spread. You say permeanent changes in the coffin bone can be prevented..well this is a 7 year old horse, remember? The changes are already permanent . Too late.
You think it is reasonable to that "if somehing can change one way, it can change back,providing the damage is not devastating".
It took 17 years to make these already devesating changes, and even if they were not devestating, this horse might not live to age 34 before he is possibly 'fixed'.
I said the fact the horse is comfortable up on his toes should tell you something.You think that he goes up on his toe from pain due to the long heels .I say the long heels were originally due to pain somewhere else,(the chicken or the egg thing) and now they either need to be left that tall if he were left barefoot , or wedged to that height after they are properly trimmed for better function. Of course trimming them is the better option for hofo health, but I ould never leave him without support under them to get them support from the ground. . You are not even considering ALL the other structures inside that foot that would be painful if he was not at that angle. We both agree that the heels and frog need better functon and should to be trimmed, but we disagree as to what to do after the trim .

ADEQUATE Wedging along with breakover point placement will do internally what he has done by growing all that heel....relieve excess stress, tension and pain in much deeper parts of the foot..the attachment of the DDFT under the coffin bone and the impsar ligament, as well as possibly the coffin joint and navicular bone.
You say that not many people have enough time to do what you would do .
I say the 17 year old *horse* does not have enough time , this should have been fixed when he was two. It cannot be done now if you had fifty years.
Patty

[Equine Podiatry]

Patty, thank you for your attention and assumption that I may subscribe to certain methods and therefore belong into the “owner category of this forum board” (Ouch… thanks for that).
However, in a way I am feeling quite flattered but I am not here to argue or step on your toes, I am here to exchange ideas and offer another opinion as a professional.
You, however see the need to disrespect my views and “flash” your level of experience and credentials to make sure we all know how much you think of yourself and how much superior your way of thinking is. This is a most peculiar habit of people with ego problems and typical to those who have closed their minds to “simple solutions”.
I hate to disappoint you, but neither titles nor number of years of experience impress me these days – or any intelligent person. Really, if results are needed, who gives a hoot.
I can strongly recommend to anyone to look a little closer into some of the results certain barefoot practitioners achieve with a lot less metal, rubber and fuss and a lot less trauma to horses (and cost to owners).
I am NOT (!) talking about the Strausser method in particular (at least she is a veterinarian), but I do not exclude her principles either – there are many more, respectable farriers and hoof practitioners alike who have done a great deal of valuable and similar research.
Let me ask you:
Does something erroneous become right because it’s always been done that way (or because it’s a fashion or trendy or some “guru tells you to?) ?–
Or is something "right" just deemed to be wrong because it has not been tried to its full potential – or perhaps because it’s too simple?
In any case:
It’s not quantity or titles but the quality of work and the results (!) any professional (farrier or trimmer) should be interested in.
This of course requires to be “soundness” as the ultimate objective and not just “prolonging an undesirable situation” (with a progressively less favourable prognosis).
This is what I feel could be happening here.

Please do not exacerbate unphysiological situations just to see if the horse’s anatomy adapts to a fashion trend! It won't.

I am sure that you are brilliant in what you are doing. But what exactly is telling you, that what you are doing brilliantly, is actually good in the long term?

Is the only solution to improve a (as you like to call it) “contracted” tendon to leave it “contracted” (raise the heel) or perhaps (“just perhaps”….) could the painful area in the hoof be addressed, so the muscle can relax, releasing and engaging the tendon as it should be?
It can be done. And with great success. I do it all the time.

See, I am not interested to do things the way you do, as I can not see a desirable long term results, but I am interested to see if I can understand your way of thinking.
Just because I do not agree with your practises, doesn’t mean I have nothing to offer - I thought that is what this board is about? To learn and exchange ideas and thoughts that may result in a positive outcome for the horses in our care.

Like you, I am in this business to help horses to achieve their full potential, regardless of age. And 17 is not old. (well – let me rephrase that: It is when you are a cripple and forced to stay one)

I have corrected and broadened my way of thinking many times over the years and am still learning. I have recognised that an open mind is not a bad thing as it lets me adopt things that work. No matter whose name is behind a solution. That is not what is important to me. I am just grateful for the “tools”.
If it is working and based on sound physiological, anatomical and histological facts AND I can see the evidence cantering off into the paddock (or working in many disciplines as sport horses after being officially “retired” as permanently unsound), I will not accept band-aids and wedge-pads that confirm and exacerbate pathologies and deformities. That is illogical and somewhat unethical to me.

But if you insist, yes I am a farrier. But I have not shod a horse since I finished my apprenticeship in Europe. I have 35+ years experience, specialising in rehabilitating lame and unsound horses in my clinic and in the field. I am now, like you, educating farriers, but I teach them functional barefoot trimming techniques and a holistic approach to their work. I am also a qualified equine massage therapist and have a repertoire of other the****utic and tactile skills. I have operated my a lameness rehabilitation clinic since 1995 and often travel to work with horses and their owners, assessing the work farriers and barefooters do.
I am a consultant to them, as well as veterinarians and owners. I advise and coordinate treatment plans to get results.
I am often called in as “last resort”.
Due to arthritis in my hands and a weak heart I have now semi-retired and enjoy my less stressful existence, reading about and studying the advances (?) in our industry more closely.
I am very excited that people like Strausser and others are beginning to have an influence. And boy, are they rolling!

As with everything: Results will always speak louder than words. Shod and unshod.

I have already figured out after reading one or two of your extensive postings that you are a strong follower – and also a teacher - of the NB group (congratulations, as I have met Gene at Tufts a few years ago and though he had many good theories).
I hope however, you will – perhaps one day, re-discover that horses are much more complex…. or simple…..in their make-up if you only allow their bodies to function as they were intended to.
Deformities and pathologies can usually be traced back to the time when “hoofcare” became part of their lives. Some were lucky. Some not so - as we can see on the many x-rays/pictures displayed on this excellent board.
The question is: What the hell happened?
(Or should we ask “WHO” the hell happened to their hooves/tendons/muscles……?)

I study (always have, always will) healthy hooves and provide the same qualities to those that are deformed or pathological. It is fascinating to watch something quite devastated to recuperate and come back to full function.
Many cases, similar to the chestnut above, show enormous improvement after a few trims and muscle treatments and gymnastics. The “contraction” in the DDFT (which is in the muscles above) would be the very least of my concerns. To remove the cause of the pain and therefore the reason for the steep “avoidance posture” would be my priority.
You may want to try and find the problem starting at the “base”.

(Unfortunately we differ in our definition of a "club foot", but we may discuss this elsewhere)


We will hopefully all agree that not everything we’ll do will work in every case and that correct application of what ever method we are using, is of utmost importance.
Let’s leave it with that.

[Rick Burten]

Interesting Curriculum Vitae. So why do you hide behind a nom de plume?

Your credibility would be greatly enhanced if you were to use your proper name and support your position with some case studies(i.e.: you state you have successfully rehabed numerous horses with a stacked heel, would you please exand on these cases.)

By the way, if you have not shod a horse, by choice, since you finished your apprenticeship all those years ago, then you are not really a farrier anymore. At least by accepted definitions of the word.

Rick

[Ronald Aalders]

Hi,

I've been 'zapping' through this post and saw "Patty flashing"! But no, I misread......

If you have a right to an opinion Patty certainly has. Though she knows I sometimes think she gets carried away a little, she has helped out a lot of people with her ideas, knowledge and experience. Although I agree that these boards would be most efficient if we would all just stick to sharing information, we all are humans too.

Which gets me to the question Rick raised. I you wish to hide behind a fancy name, not tell us your name, experience and other stuff we all know from each other enabling us to put our postings in the proper perspective, this is what you can expect. So like Rick said, if you have any experience that would help us all become better shoers, quit hiding and share your knowledge.


Ronald Aalders

[calshoer]

EP, I can only come to the assumptions I did about which hoofcare theory and methods to which you subscribe since it was you who stated that you do not shoe horses, and you frequently cite theory that Strasser originated, and no one else has as far as I know. The parts of her theory you have cited so far that 'shout' Strasser are that
1)the tall heels are the primary source of the pain
2)that the high heels must be causing a slack tendon.
3) that the horse is loading his toe more when he stands that way.
That is all right out of Strasser . I've read the big blue book.
If there are other "respected" farriers and hoofcare practitioners who's research shows the same things, tell us who they are.

As for me feeling the need to cite my experience it is because from all the barefoot practitioners I know, (and I know and respect a lot) none has been a professional trimmer more than a few years. Professional "Trimmers" is a very new phenomenon. Not enough time to see results over enough years to get a very thorough picture.
Now I am not saying that all barefoot trimmers are ignorant or anything like that. They study hoof biomechnaics harder than anyone I know. I know several who trimmed their own horses for years and went on to be professional trimmers , and are darn good. And I know a couple who were Strasser certified and quickly gave that title up when the found the dangerous flaws in the method. They are also darn good . But at any rate none have been "professional" for more than a few years . So without any information from you (despite being asked by several people here) it is impossible to tell how much rounded experience you actually have to be basing your opinions. I just wanted to clear up that I have lots of years of experience using older as well as newer science of the foot and that is how I come to my opinions .
So if my conclusion about the number of years you have hoofcare experience is incorrect , my apologies but you did not supply anyone with that information and it is easy to conclude that you had to be another of many fairly neophite trimmers. It would still be nice to help validate your advice if folks could know who you are.
You ask how I know that what I am doing is good in the good in the long term? Because I have followed lots of horses through their individual hoof changes , bad and good , for the long term. I am talking trimming or shoeing some of them for fifteen or more years. From foal to teenage, or from teenage to very old age . In the old days it sometimes included watching their feet go from sound to slowly lame with various pathology ,which I was taught was expected due to 'wear and tear and aging' because farriers vets and scientists just didn't know any better. Now most of my clients graduate from starting out lame and become sound, because of better knowledge and methods . Including trimming as well as a lot of the****utic shoeing to help them HEAL without undue pain and trauma . I say that barefooting some of the long term pathologial feet causes unnecessary trauma and pain. The same thing can be acomplished with the right shoeing.

Basically it is clear that this discussuon will only go around in circles if we do not agree on the underlying biomechanics behind the problem that caused the tall contracted heels in this 17 year old horse . One cannot discuss the methods to remedy the source of a problem if the whole problem is seen as coming from a different source.

Patty