Correct trimming of a Saddlebred

[Diamonds]

Yes, I recently acquired a beautiful Saddlebred gelding. His previous owner stated that on occasion he would stumble and fall about 20-30 minutes into the ride. Someone told me that Saddlebreds need to be trimmed differently on the front then an average horse. I welcome any suggestions and pics. Do the toes need to be shorter on the front hooves of a Saddlebred? I welcome any advice.

[Roy Amaral CJF]

The horses anatomy not it's breed dictates how it should be trimmed.

[Gary Hill]

Not up to speed with saddlebreds ,but most other gaited horses do benefit with a little more toe up front. I have seen so many gaited horses trimmed like quarter horses and they can not gait properly that way. With a short toe up front they will most likely pace. Thats OK if that's what you want your horse to do. Most of the gaited people and they are the fastest growing horse owner in the USA at this time, want their horses to move correctly. Sure each horse is differant, but this seems to work everytime here. I can watch them ride and then do the work and they move off so much like they are supposed to. THAT, makes the owners and trainers happy and they write those nice big checks without a gripe! Best, Gary

[Phil Armitage]

If you do not ride this way, then the horse should be trimmed and shod normal. The only reason for adding length and weight to the front feet is to increase action for show.

[Gary Hill]

ALOT of these are flat shod ,trail riders that want the smooth gait they bought the horse for in the first place! Ride one with the shorter toe and one with alittle more and you will FEEL the differance. Respectfully, Gary

[Diamonds]

This horse was just used as a trail horse. I'm most concerned about why he would be falling from the front legs. It looks like he is dragging his front hooves as he takes a step. I watched him as my daughter rode him for a few minutes yesterday. I have a feeling alot of it may be balance in the hooves. Because he also on occasion crossed his legs in front of each other. That also could cause him to stumble. I havent had my farrier out yet, but because I heared that Saddlebreds were trimmed differently I wanted to just do a little research into the breed.
Thanks,
D

[caballus]

In conjunction with the correct form of the hooves, the horse's movement is also highly affected by the rider's form, balance and posture. A simple "eyes down" can sometimes be enough to cause a horse to stumble because the action of looking down also causes the head of the rider to shift causing a weight shift to the front of the horse. Our job, as effective riders, is to stay out of the way of the horse so it can move correctly. But, as I'm sure we all can attest, that's not always the case. So, this may not be simply a case of properly or improperly trimmed and balanced hooves but also a case of the rider needing to get in sync with the horse. Be sure to take both hooves and rider into consideration with this guy.

:) --Gwen

[Jeanie Connors]

In addition to the great suggestions so far, training has a huge impact on how a gaited horse will move. Some horses are born gaiting and will never trot or pace; some are born gaiting and lose it as they begin training under saddle. Just about anything can throw the horse out of a gait, and as Gwen mentioned, too, how you ride can be a factor as well :) . Trimming or shoeing a gaited horse differently or specially can encourage them to keep a gait, since obvously that does work, but training and riding techniques will teach the horse to gait no matter what his feet are wearing.

Since your horse is stumbling, it does sound like something is amiss with his trim, and crossing his feet also sounds like he is uncomfortable with something, to me at least.

[Phil Armitage]

Here is a funny story for you that will kind of put things into perspective. A TW owner hired me to shoe her horse a few years ago. She was very concerned about the toe and had bad experiences with previous farriers. She even had one farrier that knew TW offer the show her other farrier how to trim TW. I don't know didly about TW or any other gaited horse and I am not to sure to this day that there is a lot to know. Anyways I trimmed the horse and put on shoes and she was very happy. After a couple of years after we became friends, I told her I never listened to a word she said and I just trimmed and shod her horse as I would any other horse we laughed. Moral of the story is, trim the right way if you know what that is and everything should be OK, keep it simple. I just took on a barn with two Pasifino Ponys one of them lost his gates, there back now with normal trimming and shoeing. It is not rocket science, and those that try to make it rocket science get into trouble.

Also respectfully

[Gary Hill]

Phil, you are right it's not rocket science. It's being able to watch any horse of any breed and help that individual horse move better and confortable. Being able to adapt, and modify a flat piece of steel or alum or a wooden clog to a horses foot, there must be reason why one horse might need something alittle differant than another. Why do ya think the AFA has all these neat shoes I'd never nail on a horse, but it does make ya better in the forge. If you lock into every horse shod same way mentality, you are not doing the horse a service it might require. We all forget that breeding has changed so much over the years ,it is affecting the horses we work on. Just as easy as it is to be an owner, said owner can become a breeder of said horse if that horse hasn't been altered. So because so and so has a "stud", which should correctly be stated owns a stallion, and because he thinks like most stallion owners that they can make a living off this "stud"! So they breed to anything that pays the price. The "get" can be a cross of whatever, and unless one knows correct anatomy and conformation some of these animals just don't move or look like "the stud"? Proper preparation and balance of the feet must include an evaluation of the whole picture. Basics are basics but breeds are differant. You're not going to shoe a show horses like a plow horse.Arabs have one less bone in their spine. My quarter horses I ride and compete on are shod differant. One mare can't handle any toe at all so the NB methods work great for her. Another one of mine is a gelding and he works best with a traditional AFA full fit shoe. The bottom line is they work and win so that makes me alittle happy. And to top todays news off, I talked to a client that called to say how well and happy she is that we left her TWH alittle longer because she finally won her class in flat shod! I like good results and will use any means that doesn't harm a horse to please the people that trust their horses to me. My teacher was Al Pinson, he owned AP Tools and Anvils. He always said to keep your mind open to each and every horse and do what that horse needed! We lost Al last year, he really wasn't a famous farrier but all the OLD Guys knew and respected him. You have a good weekend, ya hear? Gary

[Phil Armitage]

Gary, that is why every horse every foot I trim is probably not the same length. They are not the same so I trim them to what they are. This is where I believe the term natural truely fits. It is unnatural to trim a foot to a certain angle or toe length. We have so much knowledge at our finger tips these days on how to properly read the bottom of the foot and determine where to trim to. So I quess I could say I do not do all horses the same since they are not the same. I do apply the same principles that I have learned from others and I continue to learn, so my methods will continue to change and continue to improve. Unless I stray off course :)

[Diamonds]

Wow it is great to hear these different view points. My farrier comes out today. I'm sure Diamond my Saddlebred will do better after his trimming. Thanks for all the inpute!

D~

[matryoshka]

Hey Phil,

I bought one of Pete Ramey's books that talked about how to read the hoof (since I can't find a good farrier to apprentice with, I'm buying books and learning different techniques that way). Boy was it an eye opener for me. I retrimmed my chronically-foundered pony and "flat-footed" TB mare using what I learned. I finally got the heels and toes where they should be on the pony.

And I found out that the mare isn't flat-footed any more (was definitely flat when she came off the track) by using the depth of the sole near the tip of the frog as a guide. Her bars grow almost all the way down to the tip of the frog and across the sole. That is what gives her the flat appearance. This was heartening to me. I pared the overgrown bars just around the frog. I was also able to get her toes back far enough that when I trimmed her underrun heels to the right depth, she didn't look duck footed. Once I had her toes back properly, I could see that her front feet have different angles--the leg with the bowed tendon is one or two degrees steeper, which makes sense. It was a major revelation to me, and I'm still smiling about it. I'm not looking for Ramey's method to be a cure-all, but it sure gave me the answers to some of the problems I'd been having with my own horses.

I'm trying to learn how to improve balance issues barefoot. I figure if I can get a handle on barefoot balance and some hoof rehab, I'll be in better shape to make decisions about shoeing if I ever take that route.

Thanks for all the insightful posts.

Pam

[Phil Armitage]

Pam, your definately on the right track. There is a lot of information out there on how to do a good trim. One of my pet pieves on trimming early on was the lack of iinformation I recieved when I first got into this, I felt there should be at least clear things to look for when determineing toe length and how much sole to remove or leave, frog to remove of leave and heel to remove or leave. All I heard for a long time was it is a feel, keep trimming and I would develop the feel. Well I totaly disagree with that phylosophy and about 5 years ago started doing research on the Internet and found Natural Balance. Natural Balance principles are very clear as to what is excess horn, sole and frog how to trim it off and leave for support and protection and also why. It really helped me improve how I trim and shoe horses.

[matryoshka]

Hey Phil,

I, for one, am glad for the barefoot movement. It's not that I think shoes are evil (and by extension, farriers who apply them). Quite the contrary. I think shoes are important for helping many horses stay sound. But the movement has caused good trimming information to be published and made available through the internet. There simply wasn't enough information in Butler's book or my farrier class to help me learn to do a good barefoot trim on marginal feet. In class, underrun heels and long toes were always shod. So we didn't learn how to help these horses if they were to be kept barefoot. Only good quality feet were left barefoot. So I learned how to do a decent trim on good feet. Not terribly helpful in the real world of backyard horses.

Currently, I only have two horses on my client list with beautiful feet. Everybody else has some issue that needs work, and the owners want them kept barefoot. If I saw a serious problem that needed shoes, I'd refer the client to a good farrier. So thank goodness for all the great trimming info out there (and for this website). Without it, I'd remain clueless and do more harm than good. All the pictures posted here help me learn about good shoeing techniques and some of the shoeing options out there. I may not use them myself, but learning about them will enable me to tell clients that there is help out there for more serious problems.

None of the information is falling in my lap, though. One has to actively seek answers to questions, preferably from multiple sources. I'm skeptical about claims of miracle cures through trimming, and I'd really like a book to follow "cured" horses for several years, complete with pictures and x-rays, to prove that they stay sound in the long run. Otherwise, it is all anecdotal, and the horse could be dead by the time the book is published. And I won't do an invasive trim, either. If the horse doesn't walk off more comfortable when I finish, I've made a serious mistake.

Natural Balance is next on my list to research. Thanks for the encouragement and info!

Pam

[Phil Armitage]

Pam, that is a very good point and a neat way to look at the barefoot movement. I have to agree, I hope more farriers will look at it that way. I have heard other very respected farriers say the same thing and I have to agree a lot of good information about the horses feet has come from people looking deeper into it. I was taught to eliminate flares and cracks and if I did that then I was on the right track. After I payed better attention on my trmming I noticed over time there was less flareing and cracking. So logic tells me I am going in the right direction. :) Let me know what you think of the Natural Balance guidelines. The AFA is doing a better job, I noticed many members and Certified members are takeing a closer look at the structures of the sole and bars and giveing better advice on how to trim lately. Again I think your right, this is being pushed by the barefoot movement, it definately pushed things along and made people question things.

[mary waickman]

Hello Diamonds!

Not a farrier by ANY stretch, but train Saddlebreds for a living ;)

A Saddlebred wil not be any different than any other horse if his job is not different than a horse of another breed. By this I mean if you are not specializing in high performance type riding - whether that is high stepping show horses, reining, cattle work, or grand prix jumping - then the footwear needed should not need to be "specialized" either.

It sounds like more of a conditioning and training issue to me. If this horse starts stumbling 20 - 30 minutes into a ride, might that be an issue of fatigue?

Mary

[Carolhanq]

Three weeks ago I gave my first barefoot trim (Jackson/Ramey) to a tw who had just had his shoes removed. He dragged his front hooves, crossed his front feet and tripped constantly. He had no muscle development in his chest or shoulders. At this time, he has stopped crossing his feet, stopped dragging his feet and tripping. He is reaching up with a beautiful extended walk. His movement is gorgeous. I did not give any special attention to the toe, I merely gave him a natural trim, lowered his underslung heels, trimmed the over-grown bars and backed up his long toe.

[Rick Burten]

It seems to me that rather than giving the horse a "natural" trim, you merely gave it a correct trim.

Once can couch the application and results in whatever term one deems proper, but the fact is that "natural" had nothing to do with it. "Correct", did.

[caballus]

While I agree the trim is probably "correct", unfortunately, in my experience, few know what a "correct" trim really is. The "pasture trim" that is deemed a barefoot trim done by farriers around these parts is NOT a correct trim nor is it anything close to a "natural" trim. I think that's where the difference in the terminologies derives.

--Gwen

[Rick Burten]

While I agree the trim is probably "correct", unfortunately, in my experience, few know what a "correct" trim really is. The "pasture trim" that is deemed a barefoot trim done by farriers around these parts is NOT a correct trim nor is it anything close to a "natural" trim. I think that's where the difference in the terminologies derives.

--Gwen

Gwen,

You say it is not correct, or anything close to a natural trim, and seem to indicate that all the farriers in your area are performing this alleged misdeed.

However, can you describe what "natural" is and why, at least to you, and what all the farriers are doing. Perhaps provide a sampling of pictures of the work of these alleged miscreants? thanks

[caballus]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/variou10.jpg
The above is a "pasture trim" just after shoes removed. Minimal shaping, actually NO shaping was done, walls were left un leveled, hooves, in general, were left imbalanced and in poor form. Granted, the hoof depicted is shown in much better condition than immediately after the shoe was pulled and no trimming was done. But this is how the hoof was left as a "trimmed" state.

Below is a "correct" trim of the same hoof (in process).
http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/variou8.jpg

Here is another example of a hoof that is 8 weeks after "pasture trim":

http://www.barefoottrim.com/trimming/Hpim0180.jpg

vs this:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/trimming/natura5.jpg
a correctly trimmed hoof ready to be trimmed again. I believe this hoof was about 6 or 7 weeks out of fresh trim.



Guidelines for a correct trim as I maintain can be found:
http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/fronthoofangles.htm

Comparing the two photos above speaks for itself in the differences between a correct natural trim and a "pasture" trim of which I am most familiar.

If you like, I can also post some photos from the challenge we had this spring, noting farrier, natural and Strasser trims? If I remember correctly there are a few there that are a bit "off" from what constitutes a good, correct trim of a horse's hooves. The link to the May challenge is:

http://www.thepenzancehorse.com/PENZANCE2005/trimchallenge/barefoothooftrimchallengeMAY.html

I will note, however, that farrier trims that are done CORRECTLY can hardly be distinguished from a "natural" trim or, even, a "Strasser" trim as was indicated from this short challenge. No one was able to guess, correctly, 100%, the Farrier from the Strasser from the Natural trim. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was one noted farrier whose trim was mistaken for a Strasser trim almost 100% of the guesses. *G*

Once again I think we (myself included) need to distinguish the fact that its the individual trimmer and not the "trim" itself. I would venture to say that farriers are taught what a correct trim is but fail to execute one most of the time. (as I've experienced and as many others have stated that they, too, have experienced.)

Now, for anyone who is ready to jump all over me for making general statements, (yeah, I'm just a bit on guard, now, as to what I say on this board) what I've stated is what I've experienced and what many others experience in this area of New England. It may be different somewhere else but here this is how pasture trims are noted.

--Gwen

[caballus]

And here are some photos of hooves just trimmed or in need of maintenance trim with a "natural" trim:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/HPIM1746sm.jpg
[IMG]http://www.barefoottrim.com/HPIM1745sm.jpg
The ones above are approx. 6 - 7 weeks past trim.

The ones below were just after trims:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/TriggerRFsmall.jpg

http://www.barefoottrim.com/GreyLFsmall.jpg

Now I would be interested in viewing some "Pasture Trims" done by some of the farriers on this board???

[Mike Ferrara]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/variou10.jpg
The above is a "pasture trim" just after shoes removed. Minimal shaping, actually NO shaping was done, walls were left un leveled, hooves, in general, were left imbalanced and in poor form. Granted, the hoof depicted is shown in much better condition than immediately after the shoe was pulled and no trimming was done. But this is how the hoof was left as a "trimmed" state.

Below is a "correct" trim of the same hoof (in process).
http://www.barefoottrim.com/physiology/variou8.jpg



The first picture looks like a foot that wasn't trimmed at all...cleaned maybe but not trimmed. In 25 years I haven't ever seen any one set a foot like that down and call it trimmed. That's not to say that it hasen't ever happened but I've never met a farrier who would call that a trim.

The next picture pretty much just looks like a trim and I can't really see anything remarkable about it. You can call it what you want but , to me, it's just a trim.

As far as what they might look like after 8 weeks, I see some that need little more than a cleaning up and others that have grown a ton of foot and require some real elsow grease. The point here being that if you're going to compare "8 week after" pictures it needs to be the same foot, under the same conditions at the same time of year.

Once again I think we (myself included) need to distinguish the fact that its the individual trimmer and not the "trim" itself. I would venture to say that farriers are taught what a correct trim is but fail to execute one most of the time. (as I've experienced and as many others have stated that they, too, have experienced.)

I think you have to be careful saying things like "most of the time" because, as I said, I haven't ever seen that.

Now, for anyone who is ready to jump all over me for making general statements, (yeah, I'm just a bit on guard, now, as to what I say on this board) what I've stated is what I've experienced and what many others experience in this area of New England. It may be different somewhere else but here this is how pasture trims are noted.

--Gwen

Again, with statements like "most of the time" you should be on guard. I certainly haven't seen every ones work and I can't say what you've seen or haven't seen but...

[caballus]

Notice, Mike, that I did parenthesize, "as I've experienced and as many others have stated that they, too, have experienced." ... after I stated "most of the time" ... just to avoid this type of commenting that you just wrote.

The hoof that looks like it wasn't trimmed at all but just cleaned up? I can attest that it WAS trimmed as it was here on my property at the time and I watched the trimming. I even asked, "is that it?" -- the bars were taken down, the sole s****ed off, there was a little bit of wall taken off (about 1/2 of what was there, actually) and that was pretty much "it". I've also seen other horses' hooves that this particular farrier cares for and they all are pretty much left the same after trimming.

--Gwen

[Rick Burten]

I of course cannot speak for the farrier who performed the 1st (non)trim. However I will say this. There are times when I am taking a horse from shod to barefoot that I merely remove the shoes and lightly roll the edges of the wall, initially. The foot looks like ****. However, I am usually back to see the horse within a couple of weeks, and at that point, I trim the foot accordingly. I suppose that this could be conidered the much vaunted "transition period" in my practice. At that point, the foot generally looks much the same as what you depict in the trimmed hoof picture. Since the farrier did indeed reduce the wall length, I would venture a guess that he was being very conservative and wanting to give the horse plenty of time to adjust to its new circ*mstances and not be sore while so doing.

The other foot, the one that is all broken up in the toe after 8 weeks, tells us little. Some feet will look like the one you depict as a natural foot after 8 weeks and ready for a trim, and others, depending on several factors, may look like the one with the busted up toe. Not all feet look the same or react the same to environmental pressures , diet, etc.

It is my experience that the majority of bare feet that are trimmed by professional farriers look remarkably like what is presented as a "naturally trimmed" hoof.

The observation that while farriers are taught how to trim correctly, but generally do not do so, is demonstrably incorrect. For it to be correct, you would have to present evidence of a much larger sampling of farrier work, all collected with the cir***stances being the same.

As you pointed out, the differences between "natural" and "farrier" trims , during your on line challange, was virtually indistinguishable, and "shocking" to all parties concerned. :eek: :D

I will have to remember to take my camera with me and try and get some pictures of some of my barefoot clientele.

By the way Gwen, get a handle on that rasp. It makes me nervous to see you using one with the tang exposed. Dangerous for you, more dangerous for the horse. :o

[caballus]

Yep ... got a handle on my rasp. That wasn't *me* doing the trim! *G* I know that once I say "Oh such and such will never happen", of course, all hell breaks loose and *it* DOES happen! It was, however, an early on student and I now require handles on rasps. When I was studying under Marjorie Smith, it was not required to use a handle so I continued that practice until I really *thought* about what *could* happen and my propensity to draw all sorts of mishaps to myself. So, the "what ifs" have ruled this time around and I have a handle on my rasp. I also wear gloves cause its the one time that I don't wear them just to do a quickie rasp here or there is the time that my knuckles are removed from my hand. :)

I'm sure many were shocked by the results of the challenge. It actually proved out exactly what I thought it would ... that *correct* trimming of a horse's hoof is a *correct* trim regardless of how and by whom it got to be that way - by a Strasser trimmer, Natural Trimmer or a Farrier. So all the discussions and arguments about one method vs the other vs another are all pretty much moot in my mind. There are a few tweaks and twittles with which I disagree in the means to the end (ie. carving out concavity ala Strasser and carving out the bars from the sole, etc.) but, the end results usually pan out to be about the same. Differences being that a horse that is transitioned from shoes to barefoot ala Strasser *generally* (again, from my own experiences and observations) tend to be sore after the trim and I don't agree that a horse has to go through soreness during the transition stages. Like you, I tend to be conservative and take a horse from shod to barefoot through several trims rather than all at once simply to avoid lameness. Doesn't make sense to me at all to sore a horse that needs to move in order to more quickly grow out strong, sound hooves. If the horse is sore, he's not gonna want to move. But ... as has been demonstrated, the end results are pretty much the same and indistinguishable, one method from another.

--Gwen

[Carolhanq]

Ah, Marjorie Smith, I love her. Great website with awesome pictures.
I would love to study with her. Just as a note, the tw that I recently trimmed has his shoes removed that morning by his regular farrier and had been trimmed. I followed 7 hours later to begin teaching his owner how to trim herself. We ended up retrimming this gelding because there was a
half inch difference in his heels, which were still an inch too long anyway. One heel was actually turned forward and was growing towards the toe. The bars were overlaid and the toe extremely long, (yet the sole in the toe area had been removed). While we were there, another one of this farriers clients rode up. She questioned why her horses feet were falling apart. When we picked up a hoof, we saw the exact same thing. the right heel had curled up and was growing towards the toe and was at least 1/2 inch longer than the other and an inch 1/2 too long. My only point is that there are people who are leaving the horses that they trim in horrible condition. I see it every single day.

[Mike Ferrara]

Rasp handles...

I keep a couple of rasps around with the handle tang removed. I mostly use them for finishing and they makes for a short handy tool for using in places where there isn't lots of room.

[calshoer]

Rick said of course cannot speak for the farrier who performed the 1st (non)trim. However I will say this. There are times when I am taking a horse from shod to barefoot that I merely remove the shoes and lightly roll the edges of the wall, initially. The foot looks like ****. However, I am usually back to see the horse within a couple of weeks, and at that point, I trim the foot accordingly
I do exactly the same thing especially here in hard rocky Colorado. I pull the shoes do not trim anything except round of the edge of the wal it looks just like the first picture Gwen posted, THEN come back two to three weeks AFTER the foot has had time to adjust and toughen up some and re trim.I let the long wall chip, break off, wear down and it starts out real ugly but looks pretty darn good when I come back three weeks later to finish cleaning it up. That method transitions them (pain free in most cases) to barefoot for the winter. They do not have to go through the occasional agony inflicted by some trimmers who insist in a more perfect hoof form right off the bat. The ones *I* pull shoes off of do not need boots to transition....I let nature do it.
As well I think the work of the first "natural" trimmer in the challenge has too long a toe. The breakover is too far forward and cannot be brought back because the hoofwall in the toe is too short to do that safely.
If the trimmer had left a little more hoofwall around the toe, the rocker could have been placed further back, safely. AS well I see at one foot had been subjected to those criminal (in my mind) gross werakening heel opening cuts.
Cut the butresses out like that and you destroy the integrity of the back of the foot causing it to "flatten", which is NOT normal OR natural. Nature made the back of the foot to be strong not whacked out.
As well the ugly flared one that is eight weeks after a pasture trim could very well have ben trimmed very neatly and nicely eight weeks earlier and actually GREW that much foot. It is unfair to judge any trim eight weeks out you don't know what it looked like right after it was done, do you?
They CAN change that much in that time. It depends on the horses individual hoof growth, the environment, and the amount of exercise. I used to see that all the time in the wet SFbay area. Go ahead blame a farrier for eight weeks of hoof growth in an obviusly wet or soft envorinment. (given the look of the foot)
As well sometimes an ugly foot is still a perfectly functioning foot. Nothing to panic about. Here is one from many years ago a TB filly came to me to start under saddlle. She had been in a soft moist deeply bedded environmt then moved to a hard dry large environment. Having not had time to get to her overgrown feet right away, a few days later the feet looked like this. She was perfectly sound because the well developed sole callous, the frog and heels were all douing their jobs, nicely supporting and protecting the coffin bone and keping everything lined up inside.
Patty

[Forgewizard]

Now I would be interested in viewing some "Pasture Trims" done by some of the farriers on this board???

Oh goody! I like pictures!:

http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893929/8075712/109130989.jpg
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893929/8075712/109130983.jpg
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893929/8075712/109131009.jpg
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893929/8075712/109131004.jpg

[Forgewizard]

These are fun to do:http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893929/8075712/107096246.jpg
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893929/8075712/107096240.jpg