need some help

[Jason Maki]

does anyone have a picture of a lateral support and feather shoe? If so can you post it?
thanks,
jason

[ladyblacksmith]

does anyone have a picture of a lateral support and feather shoe? If so can you post it?
thanks,
jason

The DF series "Grand Prix" 24x8 shoe offered by Kerckhaert is a lateral support hind shoe. It comes clipped, uses E nails, sizes #00 - 4? that I know of.
This is a great shoe, and I've have some on my truck. You can also put a small trailer on the shoe, as well.

Hope this helps......................Linda Marie:)

[hotrodiesel]

Jason,

A feather I believe is a wedge that is severly safed. And then just bump the outside for your width. I have a pic in the book of shoes of a caulk and feather shoe. I can post that, so you can see the feather. Or I could go try to make one and show you what I think it might look like. What section you want?

Dan

[Jason Maki]

Hot rod,
If you could do both, that would be great. I looked up a "feathered" shoe in a book and it showed a preventered medial branch. I built a lateral support side and a preventered medial branch. I first swelled the heel quarter like a feaher, then beat it back to flat cause the book did not show that. I'll post a pic of my guess.
Jason

[hotrodiesel]

I'll go out and take a pic of the caulk and feather and post it here.

[hotrodiesel]

http://horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8999&stc=1&d=1240362294

[Jason Maki]

Here is my first attempt at a swelled heel side bone bar shoe-- 11 inches of 3/8x1 should have cut more. I also learned you'll smash the inside edge of your set down if you do not weld that side over the corner of the anvil

[Jason Maki]

Heres a pic of my guess--which as usual when i guess was wrong--12 inches of 3/8x1
thanks for the pic---I'll make one tomorrow and post it.

[Jason Maki]

also tried my first onion heel 11 inches of 3/8x1. I forged in a bit of lateral support on that side. Is that wrong? I have a bunch of shoes to learn before November. Any help is appreciated.
Jason

[Jason Maki]

a lighter picture of my first onion heel. 11 inches of 3/8x1 any advice... I have a lot of shoes to learn before november.
Jason

[hotrodiesel]

I have made a few of those. I will have to look at my notes on it.
Will check tomorrow.

[Just passin through~]

a lighter picture of my first onion heel. 11 inches of 3/8x1 any advice... I have a lot of shoes to learn before november.
Jason

Jason,to give a horse latteral support,meANS FITTING THE SHOE TO WHERE THE HOOF ISN'T.It is to stop lateral breakover.The foot that is shod,that needs a lateral shoe has to be missing latteral wall.So when a shoe is puched equally
on each side it is not a lateral shoe.And when a horse needs lateral support and a sideweight is used,the only reason it works so well is if the horse brushes.
Then in turn the reason the shoe is wide lateraly and punched deep, the medial side wide is to hit the white line.And should not be attempted without a pad,because a horse needs medial support, because there is not enough steel on the inside to support the landing.Fighting lateral breakover is something farriers fight their whole life.........

[Jason Maki]

JPT,
Your tone is that of one speaking to a neophyte... ain't none of them here.Are we attempting to stop lateral breakover, or place a buttress under the down force vector and correct the Ground force reaction in relation to the limb? If a lat heel is squashed axially and the 1/4 flared abaxially, what exactly is wrong with supporting ONLY the displaced heel and correcting the GFR?
Though that shoe is not what was intended.. the lateral heel is correct for a lateral support hind. the stock runs from 3/4 in the toe to well over an inch in the heel--- the shoe will fit the toe and begin expanding just behind the clip.
I built a lateral support yesterday for a deformed yearling that was built as you described-- a full inch wide from the lateral toe 1/4 and 5/8 wide through the toe all the way to the medial heel. I fullered as though the lateral branch was 5/8 then boxed it away from the foot surface too mirror a 5/8 shoe-- clipped it --- but the owners opted to Transfer to Jesus before I got to nail it on-- I gave it to a vet student for a paper weight.
How would you build a lateral support and feather shoe?
Are you taking the AWCF test in November? If so perhaps you have some sound advice on the fourty or so antiquated shoes I've got to figure out.
Jason

[hotrodiesel]

I am quite sure Jason knows what the purpose of this shoe is.
Jason just add the feather to the medial side of that shoe and
crisp it up and you got it. Gonna need a little math on that one.

Dan

[Just passin through~]

JPT,
though that shoe is not what was intended.. the lateral heel is correct for a lateral support hind. the stock runs from 3/4 in the toe to well over an inch in the heel--- the shoe will fit the toe and begin expanding just behind the clip.
I built a lateral support yesterday for a deformed yearling that was built as you described-- a full inch wide from the lateral toe 1/4 and 5/8 wide through the toe all the way to the medial heel. I fullered as though the lateral branch was 5/8 then boxed it away from the foot surface too mirror a 5/8 shoe-- clipped it --- but the owners opted to Transfer to Jesus before I got to nail it on-- I gave it to a vet student for a paper weight.
How would you build a lateral support and feather shoe?
Are you taking the AWCF test in November?
Jason

Jason,You are getting ahead of yourself.Basics first,modification is when there are no alternitives,when your basic skills willnot work for you.Then you modifi the out come.As a rule for lateral breakover is tight to the inside.When a man can stop lateral breakover he is a hero,and when he can't he is nobody.Because the straighter the horse goes,the ribbons seem to build.All horses that are shod to the knee seem to move straighter no matter which way the knee points.Because there is no other way, but to follow the "KNEE"

[Jason Maki]

JPT,
Fundamentals are just that, and proper ytrimming and fit are at the core of horseshoeing. I'll not argue that. This is about building these "specialty" shoes. We can discuss theory after November.:)
jason

[Ronald Aalders]

Jason,to give a horse latteral support,meANS FITTING THE SHOE TO WHERE THE HOOF ISN'T.It is to stop lateral breakover.The foot that is shod,that needs a lateral shoe has to be missing latteral wall.So when a shoe is puched equally
on each side it is not a lateral shoe.And when a horse needs lateral support and a sideweight is used,the only reason it works so well is if the horse brushes.
Then in turn the reason the shoe is wide lateraly and punched deep, the medial side wide is to hit the white line.And should not be attempted without a pad,because a horse needs medial support, because there is not enough steel on the inside to support the landing.Fighting lateral breakover is something farriers fight their whole life.........



..... sigh.........



Ronald Aalders

[hotrodiesel]

http://horseshoes.com/forums/album.php?albumid=77&pictureid=1129

http://horseshoes.com/forums/album.php?albumid=77&pictureid=1130

I didn't upset enough in the medial heel for the feather. But this is my guess at what one might look like.A few more and I'll have it fugured out. Hopefully
you can get an idea of the feather. Had to put in album, to big to load here.
I am pretty sure you want to keep the foot surface the same section as you start with. In his case 1". that is 12x3/8x1. My math wasnt right hence the off center center mark.:D
Maybe the angle of the feather is supposed to be the same as the boxing on the lateral. This isn't the best example but maybe it will help. I am going to make a few more tomorrow.
I don't like this one.
Dan

[Just passin through~]

..... sigh.........



Ronald Aalders

Ron,that is very impressive.Do you roll all toes when trying to stop lateral breakover? What is your point?

[Bill Lansing]

Jason- for the lateral extension hind you showed. You want to go off the inside of the web for the fullering. Your fullering basically drifted out as you got to the heel. Imagine the white line below your fullering. If you truely followed the foot with that shoe it would be jamming into the frog.

What's the onion heel for? The afa one is turned into a piece of concave.

[Bill Lansing]

Heres a pic of my guess--which as usual when i guess was wrong--12 inches of 3/8x1
thanks for the pic---I'll make one tomorrow and post it.


Try making your reverse heel in the straight. Lay your stock over at say 45 degrees and bump the heel. That will give you a really nice reverse check. The inside check will be pretty small.

3/8 x 1? what are you doing, drawing everything out? You're doing way too much work. That lateral extension is one simple heat and done. Bump it, reverse the check and move on.

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Here is my first attempt at a swelled heel side bone bar shoe-- 11 inches of 3/8x1 should have cut more. I also learned you'll smash the inside edge of your set down if you do not weld that side over the corner of the anvil
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9000&stc=1&d=1240362944

Hi Jason

Just wondering, your shoe looks like it has the swell on the ground surface.
Shouldn't it be on the foot surface:
I always thought the swell was as a wedge
for the one heel that was to low
Just wondering ???? :)

[Bill Lansing]

does anyone have a picture of a lateral support and feather shoe? If so can you post it?
thanks,
jason


You can have a look at this one:

http://worldchampionshipblacksmiths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238

[Ronald Aalders]

Ron,that is very impressive.Do you roll all toes when trying to stop lateral breakover? What is your point?

I knew you would not understand. Don't worry about it, just keep reading posts on these boards. Maybe concentrate a little on floating and the effect of weight distribution in a foot. You will find that lateral support doesn't necessarily mean you need to widen the lateral branch beyond the hoofwall. Widening the lateral web axially provides a more subtle support that (other than on narrow stoppers as the purpose of this sliding plate is) does wonders on arthritic hocks. On those a trailer or any support beyond the lateral wall often is much too agressive. But I'm sure you already knew that right?

By the way what you call a rolled toe is just a tapered/feathered toe. I always do that on sliders, it seems to reduce the "getting used to time".


Ronald Aalders

[Bill Lansing]

[QUOTE=Jason Maki;154770]
How would you build a lateral support

I'd measure the foot. Add however much length I wanted for the bump in the heel. Bump heel and put reverse check in. Mark my stock after check is in. Make shoe as usual.

and feather shoe?

Bump medial heel at the same time I'd be bumping the safeing into it. Turn toe, draw lateral branch and build caulk, draw medial branch and narrow up the heel until you get it feathered, file. Be careful not to draw the foot surface of the feather too narrow.



Are you taking the AWCF test in November? If so perhaps you have some sound advice on the fourty or so antiquated shoes I've got to figure out.

You might think of getting a piece of aluminum and drawing some lines on it. That way you can place your shoes on it while making them to see your shape a little easier.

[Mark_Gough]

...You will find that lateral support doesn't necessarily mean you need to widen the lateral branch beyond the hoofwall. Widening the lateral web axially provides a more subtle support that does wonders on arthritic hocks. On those a trailer or any support beyond the lateral wall often is much too agressive.

Ronald Aalders

Great piece of information Ron and something I can use now!

Thanks!!!

Mark

[Jason Maki]

Bill,
Thanks for the advice on the fullering-- I followed the outside edge instead of the inside. I'm torturing 3/8x1 'cause thats what i have the most extra of, and i figure drawing everything into dimension "should" help my eye and forging.
The feathered shoe pictured was a tooled shoe.. on flat stock just run the edge up? Does the foot side maintain an appropriate stock thickness while the ground side narrows and tapers up? So would a lateral extension and feather shoe have a wide from the toe 1/4 side punched course and boxed away from the foot and a tapered/swelled medial branch?
Thanks,
Jason

[tbloomer]

I knew you would not understand.

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

:rolleyes:

[hotrodiesel]

Hi Jason

Just wondering, your shoe looks like it has the swell on the ground surface.
Shouldn't it be on the foot surface:
I always thought the swell was as a wedge
for the one heel that was to low
Just wondering ???? :)

Bradley,

For a or low heel your shoe would work. Jason's shoe is for sidebone relief, and is the correct way for this particular shoe.

Dan

[Gary Hill]

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

:rolleyes:

Is that like how to make a hormone? Don't pay her?:eek:

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Bradley,

For a or low heel your shoe would work. Jason's shoe is for sidebone relief, and is the correct way for this particular shoe.

Dan
OK, Thanks Dan

But so I can understand fully, :o

On the side bone shoe like Jason's
You would leave the trimmed foot in balance,
and the shoe nailed on would put the foot out of balance to relieve pressure on the side bone issue.

Is that a correct way of thinking about it ??? :confused:
And If so I guess it would be for real bad cases. ???

[hotrodiesel]

OK, Thanks Dan

But so I can understand fully, :o

On the side bone shoe like Jason's
You would leave the trimmed foot in balance,
and the shoe nailed on would put the foot out of balance to relieve pressure on the side bone issue.

Is that a correct way of thinking about it ??? :confused:
And If so I guess it would be for real bad cases. ???

Don't think you ever want to trim a foot or add an appliance that will bring the foot out of balance. The wedged side in a sense helps the the foot to roll
off the outside easier. The outside is rolled about 3/4 the web of the shoe also, to reduce leverage.The height of the wedge would be the farriers call for each individual horse,if, it even needed one at all. In Jason's case, I think his is more a forging exercise. The sidebone shoes, I have built for practice, don't have that much wedge.
I have one horse with sidebone, and he seems to do good in half rounds.

Dan

[Bradley-1stChoice]

Don't think you ever want to trim a foot or add an appliance that will bring the foot out of balance. The wedged side in a sense helps the the foot to roll off the outside easier. The outside is rolled about 3/4 the web of the shoe also, to reduce leverage.The height of the wedge would be the farriers call for each individual horse,if, it even needed one at all. In Jason's case, I think his is more a forging exercise. The sidebone shoes, I have built for practice, don't have that much wedge.
I have one horse with sidebone, and he seems to do good in half rounds.

Dan

Thats what I was thinking . . . thanks.

Half rounds aren't given enough credit, I sure like them as well.

[Jason Maki]

The "unilateral swelled heel sidebone bar shoe" was for me a forging excercise. I picked the most convoluted sounding (thus intimidating) shoe on the AWCF shoe list. picked a clunky inappropriate stock and tried to make one that would nail. I was trying to build my forging confidence so I would stop pysching myself out and suffering brain freeze every time a tried to figure out one of the shoes i'd never seen... It half way worked. I guess I could build one deep seated to add another step.
As for the functionality of the shoe...
I'll often take a toed in side bone horse and fit the lateral branch slightly full to appose the down force of the limb ( which falls outside the ground reaction of the hoof.. but now of created resistance to his natural manner of movement which is off the lateral toe 1/4-- so I'll roll in that side to atleast the cuurent position of the wall-- unlike the side bone shoe I'll 1/4 clip on the lateral 1/4 and side clip on the medial aspectof the foot and sneek in two nails behind the toe 1/4 on the lateral aspect and file the heads down.
Often (though not always) a good deal of horny displacement is present if the colateral cartilage is not fully ossified and the lateral aspect of the horn has been displaced upwards and in these cases swelling the medial heel could create more sheraing force on both heels. This all gets to be a big circle, where in the only answer is for the horse in front of you on that day... no always and no never imo.
I;ll use a roller and grind more roll into the lateral side, knint concave closed lateraly, file a roll onto ali shoes (works well on hard lateral toe landers as well-- the are more likeley to slide into the lateral landing than ker-bam) or just not nail in the lateral toe and roll the edge down.
In general I want to buttress the down force of the limb by fitting fuller on the lateral aspect; in doing so I have no created resistance to the natural movement of the foot-- so I'll over do the lessensing og the ground reaction to attempt to comopensate for the increased strain. The exact method will vary... I've never wedged one side--- I think that might cause a shearing affect on the wedged side--- but extensive rollong more than likeley creates some degree of de facto wedging on the opposite side...
No i've confused myself!:o:D
Jason

[Mike Ferrara]

No i've confused myself!:o:D


...And probably everybody else.

[Clint Burrell]

Mr. Jason,
I get what your saying.The biggest thing is, as stated,"the exact method will vary". Two horses shod the same are never quite the same.

Clint

[Bill Lansing]

I knew you would not understand. Don't worry about it, just keep reading posts on these boards. Maybe concentrate a little on floating and the effect of weight distribution in a foot. You will find that lateral support doesn't necessarily mean you need to widen the lateral branch beyond the hoofwall. Widening the lateral web axially provides a more subtle support that (other than on narrow stoppers as the purpose of this sliding plate is) does wonders on arthritic hocks. On those a trailer or any support beyond the lateral wall often is much too agressive. But I'm sure you already knew that right?

By the way what you call a rolled toe is just a tapered/feathered toe. I always do that on sliders, it seems to reduce the "getting used to time".


Ronald Aalders

Ron, did you actually look at your photos? I suppose it's safe to assume you don't have a pic of the hoof without a shoe, huh! While I agree with your post, the pic should be in a thread titled, lack of hammer control.

[Bill Lansing]

Bill,
Thanks for the advice on the fullering-- I followed the outside edge instead of the inside. I'm torturing 3/8x1 'cause thats what i have the most extra of, and i figure drawing everything into dimension "should" help my eye and forging.
The feathered shoe pictured was a tooled shoe.. on flat stock just run the edge up? Does the foot side maintain an appropriate stock thickness while the ground side narrows and tapers up? So would a lateral extension and feather shoe have a wide from the toe 1/4 side punched course and boxed away from the foot and a tapered/swelled medial branch?
Thanks,
Jason


Jason, nothing wrong with using 3/8 x 1, as long as you know how to get 3/8 x 1 on a foot.

Yeah on the feather just run the edge. Bump it a bit first. Maintain a proper hoof surface.

If there's no extension, I don't see why the lateral branch would get punch course.

[Phil Armitage]

By the way what you call a rolled toe is just a tapered/feathered toe. I always do that on sliders, it seems to reduce the "getting used to time".


Ronald Aalders

You don't don't let the horse wear it in? Geesh only takes a few weeks of sliding stops. :)

[Phil Armitage]

...And probably everybody else.

He did not confuse JPT. :D

I would like to meet JPT, I read all his posts.

[Bill Lansing]

He did not confuse JPT. :D

I would like to meet JPT, I read all his posts.


wasn't jpt right on? What he says was an extension. What ron was talking about was flotation. And that pic was useless. Ron reminds me of a vet, can talk a good game, but the farriiery is lacking.

[Jason Maki]

Actually JPT was right. I would assume a lat support shoe has the fat lat heel, and a lateral extension shoe expands the whole ground surface from the toe 1/4 to th heel
Jason

[Mark_Gough]

wasn't jpt right on? What he says was an extension. What ron was talking about was flotation. And that pic was useless. Ron reminds me of a vet, can talk a good game, but the farriiery is lacking.

I can only hope that some day I'm just as awful a farrier as Mr. Aalders. Those world champion class reiners are probably just a fluke, but I could live with that kind of 'luck' and 'lack' of skill.

Don't even get me started on those cheesy looking banana shoes he does. I can't imagine how he sleeps at night. Must be that nice, soft mattress stuffed with money and the sound of happy horses singing his praises in the bright moonlight. :D

Cheers,
Mark

[Phil Armitage]

On the subject of floatation and support. Can I pick someones brain on a shoeing request. Working on a horse recovering from a medial colatteral ligement injury. He has been recovering fine, good amount of rest and recently put back into work. Recently showning signs of being off again on the injured leg.

Here is the request:

The right front toe needs to shortened and rolled and the
heel should be elevated with a 2 degree wedge pad or shoe with built in wedge. Assymetric shoeing should also be continued to provide adequate support to the medial collateral ligament (narrow branch laterally,
wider branch medially).

How much of a difference between the branches does there need to be before it will make a difference in ground reaction forces? He is worked in the indoor soft footing. He needs to be wedged up but he will also need support, he will crush his heels if not supported. Will the frog support interfere with the mechanics of the shoe?

[Clint Burrell]

Mr. Phil,
Can't answer on width differences in branches. As to wedging/frog support, perhaps a heavy plastic wedge like Hamilton makes or a sandwich plate w/ a bar wedge? W/ IM or Sole-Pack. Giving caudal support but keeping it above the plane of the shoe. Maybe???

Clint

[Jason Maki]

a semi decent deep seated bar shoe-- I finally figured out how to "cut" the deep seating in with a hammer without destroying the fullering--now i just need to cut a uniform line!:o
Jason

[Jason Maki]

wrong shoe sorry

[Jason Maki]

a stright down view (you can see the weeving)

[Jason Maki]

the ground side

[Phil Armitage]

Mr. Phil,
Can't answer on width differences in branches. As to wedging/frog support, perhaps a heavy plastic wedge like Hamilton makes or a sandwich plate w/ a bar wedge? W/ IM or Sole-Pack. Giving caudal support but keeping it above the plane of the shoe. Maybe???

Clint

That is a good idea, I am trying to figure out how to get the most out of this shoe. Was given an example of what to do useing steel shoes, however not much difference in the branches so I am not convinced it would make a difference. 90% of the time he is on hard dry and uneven ground or in the stall. I am thinking this horse would be better off in alum shoes to keep the package light.