Posted by Jack on December 19, 2003 at 18:07:50:
In Reply to: Re: shoe size posted by sharon on December 19, 2003 at 16:08:51:
: : : : : : : : : : : : I have a question. I have a gelding who has had sore front feet off and on for a while. It is worse after shoeing. We know it is soft tissue inflammation in the heel region, but we aren't sure what the cause is. After a few weeks he gradually goes back to normal, or close to it. He has a high foot and a low foot. The low foot is the sore one. I am not sure if this is a clue or not, so I need an expert to help me out. He abcessed in his left front foot, so we pulled the shoe. He has been barefoot on that foot for five weeks. (He is on stall rest for a bowed tendon in the other leg) When the farrier came she said he took a size 3 1/2 shoe on that side, but she'd have him back to a 0 or 1 in a few shoeings. He has been wearing a 0 or 1. She said his foot spread out wider while barefoot (interesting because he was sure not weight bearing on it for the bulk of the time). Is it normal for a barefoot horse to gain that many shoe sizes in five weeks? If it is not, is this diagnostic of anything? This is a 15.3 hand horse with big bones. Would it be normal to wear a size 0 or 1 shoe? He is an arabian, but a big one. Thank you!! Sharon (new here)
: : : : : : : : : : : I'm not trying to sound like I'm slamming the farrier, but why did he/she remove one shoe? Also why does this horse have a bowed tendon? I always remove or apply shoes in pairs, it affects the weight and balance of the legs. I have a large boned Arabian myself and he uses size 0 shoes.A 31/2 seems rather large to me to develop in such a short time as you describe. I think your farrier should explain the reason and action taken. He or she can see it first hand.
: : : : : : : : : : : JB
: : : : : : : : : : The bow happened when we put equi-paks on him. He felt so good he played extra hard. He was not in good shape because he had already been resting from bruising. One vet who saw him for the bruising said he needs more hoof mass, but I have heard so many different things I don't know what is right anymore. Could the fact that he took a size 3 1/2 shoe after being barefoot for five weeks be supporting that theory? The vet did not suggest removing the other shoe, probably because she thought I'd have this one put back on sooner. I procrastinated because I did not want to hit him with a hammer knowing how sore it makes him. THANK YOU for your advice! I have been going around and around in circles here. Can you think of anything else that could be going on here? We have done blocks to rule out anything to do with the coffin joint or navicluar. I am confident it is soft tissue, but what and why?
: : : : : : : : : I think a hoof is predetermined to be a certain size based on the white line. Deformities can alter this but it will show in the growth. Also club foot,wry hoof, and laminitis will change the appearence but this usally takes time. Such a drastic growth seems odd. I would think trimming to the sole plane and and the heels at the widest part of the frog you would see what the hoof really is. Is it symetrical (is the white line the same around the hoof) or is the excess flares (non-symetrical to the hoof). By more mass the vet may mean not to trim any more than absolutely neccessary from the sole of the foot. Also have hoof testers been used? Any new cracks or splits, etc.? I hope this will help somewhat you sound like you really care for your horse. Maybe someone else can jump in as well.
: : : : : : : : : JB
: : : : : : : : Hoof testers have been used. The pain is on the side of his hoof closest to the inside. He really cringes when he is being shod. No cracks or splits. X-rays don't show anything significant, but something there hurts him, that is for sure. A full heel block and he is sound. Block just the coffin/navicular area and he is still lame. I am up for any suggestions! Thank you very much! I do love my horse to pieces! Sharon
: : : : : : :
: : : : : : : Sharon,
: : : : : : : It seems like you have tried some different things. X-rays will normally show a infection, a thorn or wire/nail which has penetrated. With soft tissue swelling it could be infected corns (I would think this would be apparent when trimming)the seat of corn is in the very corner of the heels and bars. It should be cleaned and pared alittle each time. I am still curious about the shoe size. I've had horses with different sizes but not that drastic. You might consider a online consult with DR. Meyers on this site. I'm not sure of the price but he is very knowledgeable in equine medicine. You could send pictures to the website manager Baron to be posted. It would help also.
: : : : : : : JB
: : : : : : Thank you! My biggest question at this point is does the shoe size give validity to the idea that he needs more hoof mass. Have we been making his feet too small, not giving the sensitive areas of his foot the area surrounding it that it needs to be protected?
: : : : : While big feet displace the weight better, if your horse is over over five as a Arabian he is done growing. I think if the horse is properly trimmed according to the white line and conformation, you will know the true size. Vets mean different things with hoof mass. If they mean larger foot size, I don't think it's good to do that by not trimming. A flare can be improper trimming or the foot not wearing and will break off, if left barefoot. My Arabian is 14yrs old,15.1hh and weighs just under 1000lbs. He wears a 0 St. Croix eventer or extra-ez on front and hinds. I have not had any problems and he has trailed all over the country. Also lived in CO.,KS.,and MO. I have not used a size 3, (but I don't do drafts) only 2's on some very large QH and dutch warmbloods. I hope this helps you and maybe you can get other opinions as well.
: : : : : JB
: : : : This shoe is an eggbar, aluminum thing with a built-in wedge. Do they run a little smaller? This shoe is a bit big on him, she said. My guy is bigger than yours--he's 15.3 and stocky like a quarter horse. How long are the toes on most of the horses you work on? My geldings toes have been around 3 1/2 inches from coronet band to ground when he was wearing the 0 and 1. I am wondering if he should really wear about a 2 with a toe about 4 to 4 1/2 inches, but we have been cutting him too short and using shoes that are too small? The shorter you cut the foot, the smaller the circle of the white line would become, wouldn't it?
: : : : Next question, my gelding had "false sole" in one foot. The farrier said mother nature puts that there to protect something (this was a back foot) and she cut it all out. If mother nature put it there why do we chop it out?
: : :
: : : The only shoes that I know that are really different in sizes are racing plates. Toe length varies with horses, but is normally 3 to 4 inches. I don't use this as a tool to trim, only as a guide with new horses or if something appears wrong. You are right that the shorter you go the white line is smaller. However through training and practice you learn where it should be. The farthest I feel is when then white line(laminae) is a slight give to it, no more. I also leave barefoot horses alittle longer for wear. You could leave more hoof but the problem is you're leaving dead hoof and sole that is fragile. Also the sensitive part of the hoof is suspended by the laminae and sole and that doesn't increase. You would also need a much more frequent trimming/shoeing schedule to accomadate. As for false sole it is only sole that was not sloughed off. It appears to be the shiny sole that is left. I trim off the dead/flakey part that is intended to be shed(but doesn't because we confine them to an extent) and trim the frogs and clevises to help prevent thrush and allow debris to fall out easier. I don't feel that the sole should give to pressure although it does happen occasionally by error. The false sole can cause a absess of thrush because bacteria and fungus could be trapped. If you could send me a picture of the horse with a reference object for size it would be helpful.
: : : JB
: : Sharon
: : JB is right on. Retained sole is not nature's protection. It is there because the horse has not been out on hard ground to exfoliate it and as JB says, it can be harmful. I often see a large amount in the spring when horses have been on snow and there is often bruising under it as well as the nasty stuff JB mentions. I'm beginning to get a picture now that because of the stall rest your horse has developed false sole that is making it difficult to know how deep to trim and the foot appears larger. I'd rather leave a foot a little long in a case like this than chance trimming a little short, but it sounds like these feet are getting ahead of your farrier. If your horse was Ok at 3-1/2 inches before, then an extra 1/4 inch would be a lot of sole depth. Four to 4-1/2 inches of toe length would be too much. Bear in mind that show Arabs are limited to 4-1/2 inches of toe including the shoe and pads (if used) and must be shod somewhat shorter than this to allow growth. Since we all might measure a foot somewhat differently, the same farrier should do the measuring. And to answer an earlier question, yes, an 0 or 1 would be typical on a horse of this size, but I can't say for your specific horse without seeing him. A 2 would not be that unusual, but I don't believe that I've ever put a 3 on an arab (42 years of shoing for the public). Certainly not on one under 16 hands.
: : Jack
: This gelding was show shod most all his life--4 1/2 toes and leather pads with oakum under it. He was as sound as could be. Now he is wearing the size 0 and 1's with the 3-3 1/2 inch toes and is lame. (He tossed a shoe one day two years ago, took off all his foot in the process, we left him barefoot because there was nothing to nail to and he got progressively lamer and lamer which has brought us to where we are today) What would make a horse just cringe all over when the hammer strikes his foot? (Could he be trimmed too short for his particular foot? Could he need the 4 to 4 1/2 inches AND the leather pad to be comfortable?) He walks up to the washrack sound or pretty close, cringes with every hammer strike, then he needs a wheelchair to get back to his stall. As the weeks go by he feels better.
: THANK YOU so much for taking the time to help me with this!! We are pretty well stumped here!! The false sole thing makes sense now, too.
Sharon
Upon going back to reread some of your previous posts, I get the idea that you are talking about a 3-1/2 inch toe including the shoe. I thought that you were talking trimmed length (no shoe). I would say that would be unusually short for an arab of this size (possible but unusual). A short trim does too things that could be trouble. It weakens some of the attachments allowing the coffin bone to prolapse downward and it places the sensitive tissue junction with the white line very close to the nails. A small (short) shoe could add to heel pain from lack of support. The low heeled foot may require a larger size shoe than the more upright foot. I would suggest that you visit hopeforsoundness.com for some guidelines and also get some lateral radiographs of the shod feet to see how much sole depth you are working with. Two years of footsore is too much. As JB says we might be able to do more with pictures.
Jack