Re: Eggbars Vs. Backwards shoe?

Subject:

Comments:
: : : I do not assume that all cadavers having shoes still on them died as a result of the shoes. : : You sure imply that. : : I don't think so Patty. We can agree to disagree then? : I think it has more to do with which side of the fence we each come from. I don't describe each and every cadaver I have come across through the years. The post started out with egg-bar shoes I believe so I was referring to those I'd found having these types of shoes. Not all cadaver hooves have had shoes on them or evidence of shoes having been on them shortly before their deaths. Anyone who would assume I've found only shod dead feet.....hmmmmm. : : : As in observing poor hoof form with no history on the horse, the coroner can only say for instance that the person died from coronary blockage, but it still does not tell the coroner about that personls lifestyle, how much stress he suffered or whatever else led to the blockage. The coroner's observation on the arteries ONLY tells him the end result, and he can only ASSUME the reason. That poor formed hoof you see in the buin may have come from a thirty year old horse with severe knee deformities. it may have come from someone who neglected to call the farrier for the last eight months. : : The coroner would have an educated idea of how long it takes for such conditions to form. It's a rough estimation. I do think bones can be aged though, as in knowing how old they are by their conditions outside of deformaties. Forensics are able to determine ages (aprox) and sex of remains to help identify John/Jane/Baby Does. When I have cadavers it often times includes the bones up to the lower half of the knee joints and sometimes hocks. Many times hind legs were sawed off in the cannons below the joint but not always. Baby bones are different from aged bones but I haven't the skills to determine the exact ages of the cadavers I've collected other than to note growth plates which have not calcified or some other subtle differences between the bones. : : : See above. There is simply no scientific validity in making assumtions about HOW a foot or it's internal components got in a particular form without the history. : Patty, : Maybe you can find no scientific validity in assumptions. The end results speak for themselves though...the horses, ponies, foals, yearlings, donks are dead. If their feet were grossly misshapened it doesn't take a scientist to realize this. Working with the bones until they 'fit' does show how the limb was being used...of the bones before you. : It's useful to me. : : Which came first,. the deteriorated coffin bone or the tall heels due to the pain of hte deterioration? : I would see this quite different from you so my response will reflect this. Bone responds to pressure. Where is the bone loss most noted? Are the heels contracted? Are the bars impacted? Are there signs of human intervention or not? : As far as pain of deterioration (say in the tip of the P3) causing high heels, I don't think so. However, I COULD see contraction and impacted bar causing a horse to shift its weight onto the toe for relief. Heel pain can cause this but then, how did the hoof grow to become this way. Was it trimmed in this manner, such as methods calling for relief of the DDFT by raising the heel? : : : I have seen inherently thin soled horses damage coffin bones because they were maintained barefoot for several years ,from birth, on harsh ground surfaces, THEN rotate and develop poor hoof form due to the bone damage.See it works both ways. : Were they also maintained with steepened toe angles? For their coffin bones to rotate and soles to be thin, just how were their feet balanced? We don't see feet through the same eyes so I'd be wanting to know how those horses were prior to the damages done to their bones. Just what truly brought about the thinned soles? I'd suspect hoof balance. : : : : Hooves plan an important factor in blood flow throughout the horse's system. Long-term hoof problems take their toll. : : I can;t disagree on that little point. : : We agree on little then. In spite of my typo too! It should have read Hooves PLAY....! : : : How many metabolic conditions have hoof problems as their origin? : : : : None, from any truly scientific reasearch I can find. It works the other way around. : I do not trust the scientific research you have found. It deserves more study I think. I'm not alone in my thinking though. Scientists tend to find what they want and publish it. When they find surprises along the way they DO tend to publish those too. I think they fail to recognize the correlation of domesticity and the problems our horses have. It's so commonplaced and widely accepted it's almost the norm. It isn't however. : : : The healthier looking cadaver hooves obviously died from other causes than those with poor hooves. : : : : Perhaps some of the poor hooved horses died from other causes too, like a still sound thirty year old from colic,or cancer,or a traumatic injury, etc etc. See there is no way to know if those bad feet killed the horse. It is all assumption. : : Again it would depend on the bone as it relates to a horse's age. I don't often find many 'old' looking bones in the cadavers I pick up. Maybe someday my travels will allow me to meet up with someone who can study bones and assign ages (aproximate) to them all. I put down a 30yo pony mare after a cancerous tumor blocked her intestine. Her feet were not poor. I guess you cannot assume poor hooves horses all had cancer, colic or heart failure. : :: : For the truly mangled hooves I feel the owners did the horse a favor if it didn't just die on its own. : : Of course they did. Who could argue that? , And no one can argue that a lot of horses get put down because of bad feet, but they also get put down with bad feet despite the best barefoot OR shod care. I know a of a LOT of Strassser or other barefoot trimmed laminitic horses who were euthanized eventually despite the BEST barefoot care they could get,even when it ws initiated fairly early. I al;so know of a few who foundered AFYER barefoot trimming was initiated, and died eventuially because the trimemrs could not salvage them . So it ain't always shoes (or barefoot)which cure them or kill them There area lot of other factors involved, and Strasser makes it sound far too simple to just blame shoes. : : I guess that's the crux of this entire thread since the originator's concerns were addressed. It boils down to how you feel about Strasser? I can't help how you feel about her or what you perceive her views to be. : : : Perhaps the owners euthanized the horse and the reasons will rest with those horses. It's rare to know the histories of the cadavers when it's a bunch of cadavers provided by renderers and slaughter houses. : : Exactly my point! So whyhow can anyone blame the shoes,the foot form, or the husbandry(or lack of) when looking at those feet from horses with NO history? Like i said it is impossible to draw conclusions with so many missing pieces. That is not science, it is assumption and probably false a good portion of the time. : : Why can people NOT blame something? How much effort does it take to cause hooves to become so deformed by our hands? I only study what's before me, living or dead. The living ones I can change or seek to. The dead ones can only show me things to avoid. They can show me what extremes can be reached and still remain alive. People may aske me what I think about the cadavers I have and I'll tell them. I go by what I see in the bones, joints, hoof capsules. I don't try to paint much of a picture beyond what those provide. : : : : This is a possibility for sure. Lord knows I've been called out to help horses who would've benefited from getting help sooner vs later. But, you can often times see multiple nail holes from the resets and gain a bit more insight into how much care was taking place. The quality of care comes in the form the hoof was being maintained in. Most farriers ARE doing the best they know how but the term "Best" is relative to what they KNOW to do. : : Good point, and that is why there are now other ways to shoe horses which do not create those same hoof deformities or malfunction . Completely different mechanics from the poor shoeing you see in the carefully chosen cadaver examples at those clinics. : Carefully chosen? Do you think Strasser personally selects the cadavers to be used in her Seminars???? Please clear me up concerning this as I don't think so. Not when the hosts bend over backwards to secure the cadavers in the first place. I hardly think they could stand by while Strasser goes through them all. About the only time I've seen any form of selection being performed are by the participants themselves. They are instructed to find hooves resembling hooves they deal with so their trims will be geared more towards their horse(s) needs. I personally look for all kinds to trim from contracted, underrun, long-toed, donks, horses, foals, etc. The grossly deformed feet have very little left to trim. They come in handy for dissection/cross-sectioning. Please do explain by what you meant when you said "carefully chosen". : : : Well this would show in the distances between nail holes for shod horses and growth rings in the bare hooves. : : Not necessarily .The distance between nail holes depends on hoof growth rate as well as time between shoeings. The bettwe way to tell if hte foot was neglected is how much wall is grown byond thelive sole? And even that varies a lot with growth rate. : True. However, hooves which aren't functioning well grow slowly. If the trimmings and/or shoeing prevents good growth from occuring nails would be close, in the event the horse is shod, and growth rings would show time between changes too. : : How many excuses can horses live with? The dead ones ran out of time but maybe not the human excuses. : : I am certainly not disputing the effects of POOR shoeing. Nobody would. I am just pointing out the lack of any validity of trying to assume much about the history of WHY a paticular bad cadaver foot got that way. A badly deformed foot, just because to is wearing a shoe,is not going to prove any point in my book. : Well, a badly deformed foot wearing a shoe tells me that someone felt the foot should remain in that form at that moment. I'm quite sure they felt they were doing the right thing at the time. However, I do not believe in maintaining a foot in a deformed manner as you might. We've already discussed wedges for support and how I do not resort to this practice. (another board on this site?) : : : : Too many folks look at a dead foot chosen out of a bin because it is horrid ,with no history on how it got that way, and make assumptions..hardly scientific. Patty : : Another thought about this...as people learn more from what they see, perhaps their assumptions will become more educated in nature. Assumptions are made by professionals concerning the living animal conditions. I run into this often...assume the worst and then take a closer look only to find things aren't all that bad. : : : : : : : And I suppose Forensic medicine has no place in science? Of course it does. : : It does, but it too lacks the reasons WHY or HOW something happened unless the detectives have the rest of puzzle. All forensic medicine can do is is record what is seen at that time, ie the results. : : Nothing wrong with that though. It's just a part of the puzzle. : : : Too many folks make assumptions and they aren't all looking at dead feet. Science has its own share of flaws. It depends on the model before the scientist and the controls. Those who study dead feet pulled from a bin of them are allowed to think as they want but it's speculation at best based on what they know of bones, tissues and hoof form to function. There's more to it of course. There's loads to be learned from the dead in order to help the living. : : : : : Sure, but too many of the horse owners/ new trimmers who are learning about hoof from and studying dead feet right now are folks with NO previous studies or perspective about foot function ,and aretherefore easily swayed to believe anythoing because they lack the knowlwdge from other sources to even begin to dispute what thye are told even if they wanted to. The sheer *definition* of what constuitutes proper hoof function is in dispute among good scientists as we speak,and it is a shame that so many folks desperate for good information are getting only one (fairly unscientific) view. : Actually, they, the folks, are surrounded by many who claim to have good information. It's enough to make one's head spin. I see this in the barefoot camps. Note I used the plural form...CAMPS. As with most things, you learn from experiences...good and bad. Even those who have received training in the area of hooves come to realize how things have changed since they were first taught. If someone is only looking in one place, they can only expect to find one person's views. I'm not bound to look only at one trim method. I also have all the years of relying upon farriers to refer back to. : : Times are changing. More and more better information is creeping past resistance into the farrier ,through forums like this, and into veterinary venues as well. See where things are in a few more years. : This is also true of the barefoot methods. : : The point is that at least someone was TRYING, the best they knew how. Who iknows why they let him go that long. I have been called in to work with with vets on severe chronic laminitic horses who already had severely deformed feet, long term osteomylitis with puss running from the feet onto my shoes every time I trimmed them, who lingered for a couple of YEARS before the owners could finally be talked into putting them down. : : You were wanting those horses to make it though, weren't you? You may have had a little voice inside your head saying there was no way. When efforts don't make any gains I'd rather see horses put down. The horses themselves will have that 'look' in their eyes too. When they are still wanting to go on though, I'd have a hard time letting go. If it's a horse belonging to a client I respect their judgement in those cases. If they don't recognize the 'look', I try to make them see it. Trouble is, some owners hang on with denial way too long while their horse wants to die. It's rough to see situations like that. : : : Perhaps those bones and the foot got that way long before the last farrier aplied the heart bars. Perhaps the horse had been a rescue... barefoot, feet distorted, neglected ,down in the field for weeks ,and someone tried to save him. I have seen those cases too. : : Sometimes the last farrier on the case walks into an already huge mess, and it is not fair to blame him for the end result. You just don't know. : I don't know WHO to blame when I see such horrid feet and young feet! It really isn't a matter of blame to me. I just recognize that whatever attempts were made, did very little for the horses. This is my own personal view. It's not subject for anyone else's opinion although they do give it. I think it's your feelings towards Strasser which cause you so much concern about the blame issues. I don't think it's my personal views and comments. : : I wish I did know the history of this beast only to know how long it took for such destruction to take place. : : I can tell you that in that state it was months to years. : : And it's too bad that someone didn't recognize how damaging their efforts were long before all the bone destruction. : : : : Patty, if there are cadavers who were never shod and died from severe laminitis I've yet to find one in a bin. : : Just because you personally have not seen them, it does not mean thye are not out there. : Patty, : Please don't assume I would think otherwise. There just haven't been any in the collections that didn't have nail holes in the walls. It's just a fact of what I've seen, not the reality of everyone elses world. : : One formerly certified trimmer has her OWN barefoot horses feet in the freezer, who foundered after she barefooted him . I also know horses over the years, barefoot, who foundered and died. I have been at this a long time. Remember not all dead horses go the killers ,because as the have to be standing to get shipped there. Here in Colorado they go to the dump. In California they went to renderign plant. They are there, you just have not seen enough years yet. : : I do see barefoot founder horses! I've been at this longer than you might think I guess. I haven't personally had to destroy any of the founder cases on my own place...they got better. We can bury them here in NC or send them off to a State run lab where they can be have a necropsy and then be cremated. I'm not sure if there's a renderer nearby. I hear of meat buyers frequenting the local horse sales barns though. : : : Sorry you missed the correlation... it WAS there. I'll try again. It is kind of like like someone who observes that a horse who was barefoot broke it's leg while beign ridden, so therefore all barefoot horses are at risk of breaking a leg...get it? : : Patty : : I get more than you give me credit for. I have heard of a farrier school teaching its students that barefoot horses are a danger to ride. I don't believe that either. I don't believe that shod horses are a danger to ride either....I'm still here. I rode shod horses for many years but now they are barefoot. I do find their feet to be much more healthier in addition to their general health as well. : Maybe it's Strasser who thinks blue chevys are the only vehicles that wreck? Take it up with her. : Tree