Posted by Patty Stiller on July 10, 2003 at 23:48:20:
In Reply to: Re: Eggbars Vs. Backwards shoe? posted by Anne (Tree) Coley on July 08, 2003 at 09:01:57:
: : It always amazes me when someone sees a foot from a dead horse on which they have NO history and assume the shoe causes harm. If a shoe is *improperly* applied then sure it will do harm ,but how does anyone looking at a cadaver hoof that came from hundreds in the scrap bin know why that horse died?
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: Patty,
: It always amazes me how anyone can assume to know how badly a horse is without seeing the horse in person.
Just my point.
We're both easily amazed I guess.
No, it takes a lot to amaze me.
: I do not assume that all cadavers having shoes still on them died as a result of the shoes.
You sure imply that.
I can only study the conditions before me with each foot. Coroners do this and learn a great deal having little more than a body before them to study. Poor hoof form is obvious. The feet don't lie.
As in observing poor hoof form with no history on the horse, the coroner can only say for instance that the person died from coronary blockage, but it still does not tell the coroner about that personls lifestyle, how much stress he suffered or whatever else led to the blockage. The coroner's observation on the arteries ONLY tells him the end result, and he can only ASSUME the reason. That poor formed hoof you see in the buin may have come from a thirty year old horse with severe knee deformities. it may have come from someone who neglected to call the farrier for the last eight months.
: : Did he eventually die from the unresolved hoof problem despite a good sghoeing, did he die because of some serious systemic problems or illness?
: Again Patty, poor hoof form is self-evident.
See above. There is simply no scientific validity in making assumtions about HOW a foot or it's internal components got in a particular form without the history.Which came first,. the deteriorated coffin bone or the tall heels due to the pain of hte deterioration? I have seen inherently thin soled horses damage coffin bones because they were maintained barefoot for several years ,from birth, on harsh ground surfaces, THEN rotate and develop poor hoof form due to the bone damage.See it works both ways.
Hooves plan an important factor in blood flow throughout the horse's system. Long-term hoof problems take their toll.
I can;t disagree on that little point.
How many metabolic conditions have hoof problems as their origin?
None, from any truly scientific reasearch I can find. It works the other way around.
The healthier looking cadaver hooves obviously died from other causes than those with poor hooves.
Perhaps some of the poor hooved horses died from other causes too, like a still sound thirty year old from colic,or cancer,or a traumatic injury, etc etc. See there is no way to know if those bad feet killed the horse. It is all assumption.
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: : Was he perhaps doing better but the owner opted for euthanasia for monetary or emotional reasons? etc etc.
: For the truly mangled hooves I feel the owners did the horse a favor if it didn't just die on its own.
Of course they did. Who could argue that? , And no one can argue that a lot of horses get put down because of bad feet, but they also get put down with bad feet despite the best barefoot OR shod care. I know a of a LOT of Strassser or other barefoot trimmed laminitic horses who were euthanized eventually despite the BEST barefoot care they could get,even when it ws initiated fairly early. I al;so know of a few who foundered AFYER barefoot trimming was initiated, and died eventuially because the trimemrs could not salvage them . So it ain't always shoes (or barefoot)which cure them or kill them There area lot of other factors involved, and Strasser makes it sound far too simple to just blame shoes.
Perhaps the owners euthanized the horse and the reasons will rest with those horses. It's rare to know the histories of the cadavers when it's a bunch of cadavers provided by renderers and slaughter houses.
Exactly my point! So whyhow can anyone blame the shoes,the foot form, or the husbandry(or lack of) when looking at those feet from horses with NO history? Like i said it is impossible to draw conclusions with so many missing pieces. That is not science, it is assumption and probably false a good portion of the time.
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: : Maybe the foot got in that horrid condition BEFORE the farrier was ever called and the farrier did the best he could with an already made wreck?
: This is a possibility for sure. Lord knows I've been called out to help horses who would've benefited from getting help sooner vs later. But, you can often times see multiple nail holes from the resets and gain a bit more insight into how much care was taking place. The quality of care comes in the form the hoof was being maintained in. Most farriers ARE doing the best they know how but the term "Best" is relative to what they KNOW to do.
Good point, and that is why there are now other ways to shoe horses which do not create those same hoof deformities or malfunction . Completely different mechanics from the poor shoeing you see in the carefully chosen cadaver examples at those clinics.
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: : Maybe the farrier did a fine job initially,but the owner neglected to call him back for many months and the foot distorted again.
: Well this would show in the distances between nail holes for shod horses and growth rings in the bare hooves.
Not necessarily .The distance between nail holes depends on hoof growth rate as well as time between shoeings. The bettwe way to tell if hte foot was neglected is how much wall is grown byond thelive sole? And even that varies a lot with growth rate.
How many excuses can horses live with? The dead ones ran out of time but maybe not the human excuses.
I am certainly not disputing the effects of POOR shoeing. Nobody would. I am just pointing out the lack of any validity of trying to assume much about the history of WHY a paticular bad cadaver foot got that way. A badly deformed foot, just because to is wearing a shoe,is not going to prove any point in my book.
: : Too many folks look at a dead foot chosen out of a bin because it is horrid ,with no history on how it got that way, and make assumptions..hardly scientific. Patty
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: And I suppose Forensic medicine has no place in science? Of course it does.
It does, but it too lacks the reasons WHY or HOW something happened unless the detectives have the rest of puzzle. All forensic medicine can do is is record what is seen at that time, ie the results.
Too many folks make assumptions and they aren't all looking at dead feet. Science has its own share of flaws. It depends on the model before the scientist and the controls. Those who study dead feet pulled from a bin of them are allowed to think as they want but it's speculation at best based on what they know of bones, tissues and hoof form to function. There's more to it of course. There's loads to be learned from the dead in order to help the living.
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Sure, but too many of the horse owners/ new trimmers who are learning about hoof from and studying dead feet right now are folks with NO previous studies or perspective about foot function ,and aretherefore easily swayed to believe anythoing because they lack the knowlwdge from other sources to even begin to dispute what thye are told even if they wanted to. The sheer *definition* of what constuitutes proper hoof function is in dispute among good scientists as we speak,and it is a shame that so many folks desperate for good information are getting only one (fairly unscientific) view.
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: : Egg-bar shoes are known to also cause problems too. I've seen more underrun heels and crushed heels thanks to the egg-bar shoe.
: : That is because the farrier who applied them did not understand proper hoof preperation,shoe fit,and frog support. (in other words they were mis-aplied). Patty
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: They are continually being mis-applied also when the owners do not recognize the damages. If their farrier cannot tell and the owners can't the horse just has to suffer until its life is ended or someone else comes along and points out the misapplication of the shoes. So much goes unrecognized.
Times are changing. More and more better information is creeping past resistance into the farrier ,through forums like this, and into veterinary venues as well. See where things are in a few more years.
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: : I've also found cadavers still wearing heart-bar shoes with obvious attempts being made to correct a terrible founder. The horse lost most of its P3 (coffin bone) in addition to so much bone loss in the P2 and P1 as well. There's no way this horse could've still been standing.
: : Of course he was probably not standing or they would not have killed him. And you can tell me there are NEVER cadavers with bare feet, never shod, who died from severe laminitis? . Your statement is a little like saying just because a blue chevy gets in a wreck that only blue chevys ever crash.
: : Patty
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: Not everyone kills a horse for not standing! There are rehabs that cannot stand for quite some time but the horse isn't killed. This particular limb didn't offer a horse much to stand on any more. The joints were deteriorating, bone fragments were emerging from sores in and above the hoof. What a wretched state this horse ended up in. What was the point of having a shoe on it at all?
The point is that at least someone was TRYING, the best they knew how. Who iknows why they let him go that long. I have been called in to work with with vets on severe chronic laminitic horses who already had severely deformed feet, long term osteomylitis with puss running from the feet onto my shoes every time I trimmed them, who lingered for a couple of YEARS before the owners could finally be talked into putting them down.
Perhaps those bones and the foot got that way long before the last farrier aplied the heart bars. Perhaps the horse had been a rescue... barefoot, feet distorted, neglected ,down in the field for weeks ,and someone tried to save him. I have seen those cases too.
Sometimes the last farrier on the case walks into an already huge mess, and it is not fair to blame him for the end result. You just don't know.
I wish I did know the history of this beast only to know how long it took for such destruction to take place.
I can tell you that in that state it was months to years.
: Patty, if there are cadavers who were never shod and died from severe laminitis I've yet to find one in a bin.
Just because you personally have not seen them, it does not mean thye are not out there. One formerly certified trimmer has her OWN barefoot horses feet in the freezer, who foundered after she barefooted him . I also know horses over the years, barefoot, who foundered and died. I have been at this a long time. Remember not all dead horses go the killers ,because as the have to be standing to get shipped there. Here in Colorado they go to the dump. In California they went to renderign plant. They are there, you just have not seen enough years yet.
Of the ones I've come across, there were either shoes attached or nail holes still visible with rust stains still remaining on the weigh bearing areas of the walls. I wouldn't dare assume that a barefoot horse couldn't die of severe laminitis without ever wearing a shoe. If the trim applied (or neglect of such a horse/pony) did not address the problem and only made it worse, it's quite likely a death sentence for that animal. They don't all end up in a slaughter house or renderers. Many are quietly buried on the owner's premises or cremated (at a lab).
: As for Blue Chevys, yes, they CAN get into wrecks. However, I've seen too many other vehicles wrecked so I couldn't seriously believe only blue Chevys wreck. There are only so many blue chevys available to wreck...some are lucky and some aren't. I don't see the correlation between blue chevys and what I've been talking about (cadaver feet).
Sorry you missed the correlation... it WAS there. I'll try again. It is kind of like like someone who observes that a horse who was barefoot broke it's leg while beign ridden, so therefore all barefoot horses are at risk of breaking a leg...get it?
Patty