Re: navicular horses - "Masking Pain"

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: : : : : : : : In actual fact, when correctly applied, the shoeing protocol so rapidly normalizes bloos flow and weight distribution in the hoof so far beyond what is possible with a trim alone, the healing process is greatly accelerated and the pain reduction is a real phenomenon and indicative of healing and not "masking". This "masking" statement is akin to leaving a cast off a broken limb to allow it to "heal naturally" and not mask the pain. Note how silly this really is. : : : : Dr. Myers, you state that it is a fact that application of a shoe rapidly normalizes blood flow and weight distribution? Can you please refer me to the research that verifies that statement? It seems like "simple logic" to me that just the addition of the extra weight of a shoe to the hoof would prevent "normalization of weight distribution" and that the very act of nailing on a shoe, by restricting expansion/contraction of the hoof, restricts blood flow. You might be able to make an argument that there is still some movement in the hoof, but you certainly cannot make a valid one that this movement would be "normal." : : : : : : : : : An even more frightening concept is the one in which the "horse will get worse before it gets better". What happens in reality is that the load distribution is now incorrect for the situation and the pain is telling the horse to limit his movement while nature attempts to repair the damage that has been done. Pain is part of injury, not part of healing. Simple logic. : : : : : : : : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M. : : : : : : : : Of course pain is part of the injury -- it is the main symptom that there is damage in the hoof. And, as you pointed out, it is the message to the horse which will prevent it from using itself in a way which will further the damage. With all respect, Dr. Myers, do you truly believe that when a shoe is applied to a horse who is in pain and the pain now disappears that the shoe has corrected the problem? If you were to remove that shoe immediately and the pain returned would you believe that the lack of a shoe is what is causing the pain? Do you believe that healing can take place with reduced circulation? Do you believe that neural function is independent of adequate circulation? : : : : It is my belief that the only way to heal lameness is to remove the cause and support the horse (the whole horse) as naturally as possible through the process of healing the damage. : : : : Anne Daimler : : : : SHP 2002 : : : : DeLand, FL : : : Anne, I have seen absolutely no scientific proof from Dr Strasser that physiologically CORRECT shoeing masks pain or reduces blood flow. : : : If ALL shoes masked pain, then all lame horses who got shod would all walk off sound. But they don't. And if a shod horse steps on a sharp rock or gets an abscess, he limps. Geesh think about it. : : : I know that DR Strasser tries to cite DR Pollitt in claiming that shoes reduce blod flow, but that little bit is taken completely out of the full context of that section of the the Pollitt study and is in fact contradictory to what DR Pollitt actually said. : : : On the other hand, there IS indeed plenty of scientific proof that blood flow can indeed be enhanced by the right kind of shoeing. (which does not include most of the older, long accepted, 'thought to be therapeutic' shoeing methods). : : : The new proof about circulation comes from studies using venograms, doppler ultrasound of the digital arteries,and MRI studies on the internal hoof tissues. Those science modalities offer immediate and positive proof about changes in circulation due to changes in shoeing. You can see inside the living foot, and see the changes. : : : If you want to ignore new, good science, fine. But you may as well quit trying to argue it with theories that have not been proven with scientific method. : : : Patty : : So where are all these studies? I would really like to see them. : : I have seen Pollitt's video (the entire video) and am aware that the video itself shows something different from what he says. I am more likely to rely on what I saw than what he said. : : Anne : Why is it that every time a Strasser follower is asked for some scientific proof they can't offer it? Instead they ask for my proof otherwise? I have some. Where are Dr Strasser's? : I find it intersting that you choose to disbelieve what DR Pollitt actually SAYS on his video. : I just finished reading The Strasser big blue book, and saw no actual independant proof listed of her claims. TThat book is filled with assumptions and theory but no science. Even some of her drawings of assumed bone poisition inside various feet are pretty unbelievable(and impossible)to anyone woh has seen enough radiographs of actual living feet. There are also NO footnotes, so it is virtually impossible to tie in any of her statements to specfic works in her reference list. : As for studies I know of which DO examine blood flow,all this is very new technology and most of the studies I am privy to are either in the works as I write, not published yet, or are from individual veterinarianls clinical work and not going to be published. But i will mention a few here. : Dr Meyers may know of some published that I am not aware of . And DR Redden does a LOT of venograms on laminitis horses, and has followed the healing process over time, using shoes. he may or may not have published data but he certainly keeps records. : I have personally seen venograms taken over time on laminitic horses clearly showing regeneration of some of the destroyed circulatory structure in the dorsal part of laminitic feet, and healing and reconstruction of the damaged distal end of P3, all WITH therapeutic shoes . If the shoes reduced circulation so much how could the bone heal and new vessels regenerate? Common sense. : : There are newly published studies about MRI examination of live feet with navicular area pain but which have no bone changes radiographically.(Washington State University 2003, presented at the AAEP just last week) : Those horses frequently had increased edema (swelling from excess fliud) in the impar ligaments and fluid accumulation in the navicular bone itself, or edema in the deep flexor tendon. They can certainly be re-examined later to assess healing and I hope they do that.(and perhaps they have, and will publish the results later) : Live horse studies are far more valid than looking at dead feet with no history and just making assumptions about the cause of the condition of the dead feet. : The reseach using MRI and such is so new that it will take a while to get all the long term results but it WILL be there eventually. : I know first hand from a local researcher about a small clinical study here where they had access to a doppler ultrasound for a day and used it to examine the blood flow through the digital arteries at the pastern, making changes in the shoeing and also barefoot. They looked at several horses ,oneinitially shod with no frog support, and one with. They made changes in the shoeing ,including pulling the shoes and examining them barefoot. They were able to observe immediate changes in blood flow as they changed the shoeing or barefooted the horses. : They observed that shoeing with no frog support greatly diminished blood flow ,while adding frog actually enhanced the blood flow, even better than barefoot . What that tells me so far is that the RIGHT type of shoeing, which utilizes the structures in the foot as they were designed ,does not hurt the hoof but can even enhance it's function. There will certainly be published studies along those lines in the futuure, it is very expensive and time consuming work. : : BTW, as I read through that entire big blue book (every page) I noticed that Dr Strasser did not show one single phisiologically correct shoeing. Not one. Every single shoeing in that book was either atrocious by anyone's standards when it was applied, or was so far overgrown that weeks ago it had lost any chance of remaining biomechanically sound. And then she uses those gross examples of poor shoeing to blame ALL shoes. : Not a very fair assessment of all the newly available shoeing methods. The one example she showed of Dr Redden's glued on wedges had been misapplied. It appeared the farrier had not adequately trimmed the underrun heels before he applied the system, or ot had been left on too long without a reset. She then blames the underun heels on the wedges themselves, when in fact it was from the lack of proper heel preperation or overgrowth. Typical of her misconceptions about the true causes of the end result. Patty