Re: Strasser Method Question?/ Navicular

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: : : : : : : : : : : : : Rick writes: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Many of us have done the "research" such as it is. We(I) find it interesting how you and the rest of the acolytes have bought into the Strasser franchise without doing your own research. Strasser's protocol has been repeatedly debunked. Her theories are outdated, erroneous, and when put into practice cause pain, suffering and damage to the horse. Her ability to convince a willing following that hers is the only way, continually places her in the running, and often winning , the Phineas award. : : : : : : : : : : : : : (Please post this research Rick showing Dr Strasser is incorrect. Start with her most basic premise the 30 degree hairline, where is it researched and proven that this is incorrect?) : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Rick wrote: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Also, regarding your contention that appropriately (my word) raising the heels further reduces circulation, it would seem that this should be relatively easy to ascertain. Have you, any other strasserite, or F. Strasser herself, undertaken this research? If so, what were the results and where are they published? If not, why not? : : : : : : : : : : : : : (http://www.thehorse.com/news.asp?fid+4249) : : : : : : : : : : : : : "Because heel perfusion results from multiple sources and is plamer in origin, pathologic conditions of the foot seldom affect the appearance of heel vasculature. However, lateral radiographs will show compromised bloodflow to a normal heel loaded by wedge pads. Raising the heel ten degrees significantly reduces the vascular fill in the palmar vessels and compresses the frog and sole papillae." : : : : : : : : : : : : : "Medial/lateral imbalance of the foot is apparent on the DP view. Horses with a jammed ( proximally displaced ) medial coronary band often have reduced fill on the medial coronary plexus when compared to the lateral plexus. This effect is exaggerated when a foot is wedged medially or laterally." : : : : : : : : : : : : : Interpreting Venograms and Artifacts : : : : : : : : : : : : : 4/03 Amy Rucker DVM : : : : : : : : : : : : : I suppose though that if you had raised the heels yourself it would not have caused damage or reduced blood flow? : : : : : : : : : : : : : TE : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Wow, this is a perfect example of there being no reality, only perception. One person percieves a 30 degree hairline to be perfect for all horses, I percieve that every individual horse is different and many times each leg and foot is different how could one ideal work for all horses? That is like saying that a man 6 foot tall should wear a size 11 shoe, if he doesn't then we must make it fit. The one and only problem I have with Strasser is that she does not take into account each individual hoof and leg, she set a protocal for the masses to follow and with some simple measurements and a vague idea of anatomy they are turned loose. Not all horses are the same, and cannot be trimmed the same. You will have your successes and I congratulate you for them, but I fear you will have more failures than successes for no other reason than you have only one way you can trim a horse, one protocal the holy grail of trimming and unless I'm mistaken you are not in any form allowed to deviate from that pattern. I have many tools in my box which include information I've received about perimeter fit, Natural Balance, Strasser, countless books and articles all of which I bring into play with every horse barefoot or not. You have only one tool what if that tool breaks, where do you go from there. : : : : : : : : : : : : Dave : : : : : : : : : : : Dave, : : : : : : : : : : : That is a total misconception. Every hoof on every horse is different. However the 30 degree rule still applies. I stated before that in nature EVERY hooved animal has a 30 degree hairline, Dr. Strasser had a mathematition work on the problem and he concluded that there is only equal suspension of the coffin bone with a 30 degree hairline. Also in physicics 30 degrees is the optimal angle for shock absorption. Even 1 or 2 degrees off starts the overloading of the frontal lamina. : : : : : : : : : : : She originally started with higher heels and discovered that it just did not work. And we have an amazing amount of options at our disposal. This comes from the extensive education recieved during the course. And each year it increases. :) : : : : : : : : : : : Tracy : : : : : : : : : : What animals did you observe to have a 30 degree hairline? It would only seem logical that other hooved species could have differing angles dependent on their evolutionary niche. I imagine that Dr. Redden and Gene Ovnicek observed a variety of angles in feral horses. In the last Bluegrass Laminitis Symposium a wide variety of variations on hoof structure of feral horses were presented. Is Dr. Strasser saying that she knows better than Mother Nature (which is where I thought bare footers were going)? Dr. Stasser does not think she knows better than Nature, that is the point. : : : : : : : : : I have noticed this same angle recently at my childs high school ag barn. I have not taken on this research myself. One of the other trimmers noted it in a butchered moose leg. : : : : : : : : : : Is the mathematician aware that shock absorption in the equine has far more than just angle to engage? Is he aware that the slide of the hoof is an integral part of the absorptive mechanism? The three dimension structure of the hoof and its intricate internal mechanisms have yet to be fully worked out by far more sophisticated computer scientists than Dr. Strasser's mathematician. : : : : : : : : : This was for only one part of the shock absorption, the hoof itself. : : : : : : : : : : It appears that while you feel your education increases, Dr. Strasser's does not. : : : : : : : : : I see why so many other Strasser Trimmer abandon answering as all that i am beginning to see it is a twisting of words with nothing to back up your position. : : : : : : : : : : I'm afraid I still can't justify applying a Strasser trim to my show Saddlebreds and Hackney ponies. They just won't be competitive. You are certainly welcome to try it and jump in the ring with us. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Well, I cannot justify harming my animals to suit my own goals so you will not be seeing me anytime soon. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M. : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : Did you "note" this angle or actually measure it? "Eyeballing" angles is not very scientific and you are ascribing good science to Strasser methods. Just for the information of the Strasser trimmers on the board I will endeavor to measure some angles of some of the livestock I work on. Should be interesting. : : : : : : : : I think you misunderstand "the hoof itself" total mechanism. The angle of the coronet band is only a very small fraction of the shock absorptive mechanism. It is also impossible to separate the mechanism of the hoof from the upper mechanisms of the limb. : : : : : : : : I told you the "backup of my position" was a seminar delivered on observations of many variations of the "normal" feral horse hoof seen in the wild. How much clearer can that be? I am also going to accurately measure some hairlaine angles and question some colleagues (specifically Ric Redden, D.V.M. and Gene Ovnicek) on this particular issue. They have seen far more feral horses than Dr. Strasser. If they say 30 degrees is correct, I will defer to their expertise and adjudicate you as correct. TE says Dr. Redden has said this 30 degree is in his note archives. I am having difficulty accessing them at the moment, but I will call him in the morning. : : : : : : : : To insinuate that specialized shoeing and specialized use of horses is harmful is a very narrow view. Police horses must be shod to "pound the pavement" for hours. Saddlebreds and Hackneys have been selectively bred to produce the action that is enhanced by specialized shoeing. They are an artificially created animal and have little to do with evolution at this point in their career. They would not survive in the wild and probably do not wish to do so. Since you have never ridden one of these horses in the show ring you have no way to get the feeling of exhiliration that you experience with your horse as you enter the ring. These animals love to perform, they are bred for it and they exist for it. To belittle them by insinuating that their very existence is "harmful" merely shows a lack of knowledge and a lack of desire to obtain any knowledge of the broader scope of the entire equine industry. I don't agree with many of the techniques used on Tennessee Walking horses, but to correctly shoe one and train one for maximal performance is an awesome sight and I can appreciate this occurrence. I even enjoy riding it. : : : : : : : : Please remember this quote - "The mind is like an umbrella, it works best when open". Working with absolutes and refusing to look at anything other that could be helpful or is even just different (even if you don't fully agree with it) will not be beneficial to you in the long run. : : : : : : : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M. : : : : : : : An open mind is how I got were I am, I refused to accept the status quo. We have not changed the basic skeletal structure of these animals by our selective breeding. I see it all the time. Gaited show horses are some of the most abused. I currently trim a 5yr old TWH that is retired from the show ring. For Gods sake they don't even finish growing till they are at least 5. How can you justify putting such a restrictive device on a still growing animal. These animals have beautiful movement all on there own. The problem is that we are so arrogant as to believe we can improve on nature, in the end it is the animals that pay. Abuse in ignorance is still abuse. : : : : : : : Tracy : : : : : : You are citing a single case you are familiar with of a single abused horse. Yes, there is abuse in all circles of horsedom, including Strasser trimmers. This does not equate to all showing of these horses being evil. I carefully monitor the horses under my care and they can open their heels and grow some very excellent hoof when shod with the understanding of correct hoof mechanics. These shoeing methods are not restrictive when properly applied. : : : : : : There is no "arrogance" of an "improvement on nature" since no one in the industry claims that their horses are "natural". They are fully artificial and have been selectively bred to do what they do. To attempt to undo this may not be fully successful although in many instances it can be. : : : : : : BTW, we most certainly have changed the basic skeletal structures of these horses or there would not be different criteria for judging conformation in the different breeds. I handle a large number of a variety of breeds and the hoof walls of Thoroughbreds is far less massive than a Saddlebred or Tennessee Walking horse. The phalangeal alignments and structure is different in these horses, sole thicknesses differ, and overall hoof shape is different. These observations I have made over the years not only in show animals, but also in flat shod and barefoot pleasure animals of these respective breeds. : : : : : : Before you accuse one of abuse, you need to make sure it truly exists other than in a very limited view available to you. : : : : : : To decide to make a jump of all breeds to barefoot and Strasser trimmed is unrealistic and will not occur. So you approach each case individually and create the most optimum enviroment possible. The basic premise is not to "break the rules" but to "change the game" on a gradient level. This requires a thorough understanding of hoof mechanics so it can be applied to best advantage for each case. Using a "rote method" like Strasser's trimming does not allow for free thinking and gentle, stepwise movement to optimum. While TE states that Strasser claims "there are no absolutes" most of what is seen on this board regarding Strasser techniques are absolutes. I have not seen room for variance, only to watch the horse remain uncomfortable and allow him to work through it. I cannot ascribe to this practice. This is abuse, pure and simple. : : : : : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M. : : : : : : : : : : If your child had to undergo surgery for a joint problem which later required extensive rehabilitation which would be painful to undergo. Would you allow you child to sit on the couch for the rest of their life or push and support them through the physical therapy? : : : : : This is not the only gaited horse I trim. One is in much worse physical condition with a lot of unknown history. Some have never worn shoes but are still over comming the too high heels. The basics still apply to all horses. The shape of coffin bones are not any different in a gaited horse. They still have 45 degree front toe angles, 55 degree rear toe angles, and 30 degree hairlines are what you get with these angles if you have a healthy connection. : : : : : Tracy : : : : Now you are making statements you cannot back up with facts. On the contrary, coffin boines are quite variable among horses in general, breed notwithstanding. They have a variety of shapes and sizes and since I have access to a large number of radiographs, I will accurately measure a number of angles for you and report back. let's see if your information is truly correct. : : : : As far as rehabilitation of humans as applies to horses, you are using examples that equate to comparing apples to oranges. What if there were two ways to treat your child, one that was painful and required long term therapy or one that produced a faster result that was far less painful, now which would you choose? I will not ascribe to the theory that the Strasser trim will cure all ills. This is an "absolute" (hmmm.. TE can you help here, Strasser does not allow shoes...absolute?)of her system. There are very good shoeing techniques that will cause rapid sole regeneration with much less pain than any trimming method can accomplish. Turning away from this technology is not keeping an open mind. Plus, the healing of the internal structures of the hoof do not equate to healing of joints. This is precisely one of my points of the misunderstanding of hoof mechanics among Strasser followers. : No kidding, healing of joints takes concussion to express fluid through the joint as there are no vessels in cartalige. Healing of the hoof takes lots of circulation from movement on appropriate terrain depending on what you are dealing with. Yes not everything is currable, sometimes the internal organ damage is too far gone to heal the hooves. Sometimes there is so much coffing bone destruction that it is past repair. This is usually the case only with a very long term founder were the horse has been standing on the tip of the coffin bone for a long time. Otherwise, i have seem some pretty hideous looking hooves come along nicely . : : : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M. : : : The point was not to compare the actual problems but to make a moral point. I think you know this but are looking for ways around it. As far as shoes being quicker it is simply a form of druging as the hoof goes numb after a shoe is applied. Healing takes increased circulation, shoeing greatly reduces circulation. There is no real healing with shoeing only a temp. fix. : : The only people on this planet that believe a hoof goes "numb" after shoeing are Dr. Strasser and those who believe her. There is absolutlely no proof of this. If it were true, why are shod horses lame? A simple query that immediately disproves your "numbing" theory. : Not true, hold a shoe and knock it against concrete or a rock and see what you feel. When I tried it my hand went numb for about 10 min. This is only one factor, vibration of near 800mhz that in living tissue causes Raynards syndrom. : The circulation is greatly reduced not totally shut off. This would cause the hoof to go necrotic as Dave pointed out earlier. There is still circulation above a certain point depending on the angle of the hairline. The shallower the hairline the less circulation there is. Which is why "navicular" horses go sound when shod with wedge pads. This is a simple matter of the pump action of the hoof, it requires a shutoff valve. This valve is the lowering of the pasturn during movement. This reduction in circulation slows or stops the nerves from firing. : : You are dodging the issue and the question by answering with what we communication people call "an origination". You do not answer a question, but bring up an unrelated topic to dodge the answer. Answer the question posed and we will proceed. Otherwise , admit defeat and bow gracefully out. : Which particular question? About a less painfull method of healing. If there is a painfree method to transition from the damaging practice of shoeing let me know. Shoeing is not an option, it not only damages the hooves but the internal organs. My horses have never looked healthier, I get the same comment from a lot of my clients. Not only that but they move so much better without the shoes. : : You also need to answer this question: If I shoe a thin soled horse with a roller motion rail shoe how does the rapid increase in sole growth and depth occur? This always occurs with this shoeing protocol. You may theorize this answer any way you like using "Strasserism" but decreased circulation is not likely going to factor in unless you can explain how sole can grow without blood supply. The gauntlent is now specifically thrown down. Can you accept? : : (Note: The sole will double in depth - or more - in 5 to 6 weeks after shoeing.) : With a barefoot horse the sole thickness doubles within a couple of weeks if there is not sufficient surface ware from movement on abrasive ground. In a hoof with inflamation the sole will double in a week. : : : You will need actual coffin bones to make such a survey. X-rays are to easily distorted depending greatly on the angles the shots are taken at. Yes off course coffin bones come in all sizes, this is obvious. Difference in shapes is another matter, due to pressures of shoeing and incorrect trimming. Most coffin bones we prepare have some from of damage to the palmar process. I even have one that shows the horse had not only shoes but clips as well. However, the basic toe angles come out the same; 45 fronts, 55 backs. : : Equine podiatrists take radiographs per a specific protocol to prevent distortion. If Dr. Strasser were a true podiatrist she would have taught you this protocol and noted that it minimizes distortion. You can learn this protocol on this site if you are truly "open minded". : Were on this site? : : If the coffin bones you prepare are damaged from improper shoeing and trimming where is your data on "Strasser normals" coming from? : The coffin bone damage is usually limited to the edges along the bottom, this does not change the measurable toe angles. : : Don't worry, I will use the films taken with podiatry protocols and distortion will be minimal (unless, of course it doesn't agree with Dr. Strasser in which case I am certain you will adjudicate it to be false). I will search my Epona Tech database and use these values as well for your benefit. This is a computer program that measures parameters of hoof photographs and radiographs that additionally mathematically removes distortion. Would this be acceptable? : Yes it would, is there a way to varyify the angles at which the x-rays are taken? : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M. : : : Tracy