Re: Strasser Method Question?/ Navicular

Posted by Jason Maki CJF on June 12, 2004 at 07:47:18:

In Reply to: Re: Strasser Method Question?/ Navicular posted by M. W. Myers, D.V.M. on June 09, 2004 at 19:07:13:

: :
I do not have the patience to argue wether or not the digital cushion, suspensory apparatus, and geneteic varience should be ignored, nullified and good sense villified. I am glad Dr. Meyers and Mr. Rick Burton can do so without upsetting there digestion.
The ansewer to the question" How do we stop the harm?" is simple and hidden not so deeply behind the vail of superiority all of the "naturalists" employ. They want horses to be rid of humans. Turn them out in a feild, trim them so they are only partialy ambulatory and watch them eat grass in their "natural enclosure". Re-inflict the insult to the feet every two weeks to ensure they do not escape! Humans, and all things deriving from humans i.e. the product of logical thinking , must be evi:humans are evil!
These folks utilize every advantage of modern society, communications, medicine, easy food production, transportation, electricity to tell all of us that humans are false and evil... flag burners hiding behind the Constitution, or pro-abortion activisits that are against the death penalty.
These folks cannot exist on there own, as they are unable to think clearly. We hold up the world and create the preserve that causes them to rail so violently. Go soft on them, ignore them and leave them to their own devices. Ayn Rands "Atlas Shrugged" comes to mind. Let the "Naturalists" see how vicious a partener nature is...
Jason
Dr Redden's 30 degree comment was published in The Horse magazine - he has not remarked about why this is correct, perhaps he will explain why. There must be a reason other than that is what it is.

: Ric hasn't been available, but I will certainly address this statement with him the next time we speak.

: : "Specialized" shoeing and the lifestyle that goes with it is harmful, it cannot be anything other than harmful - Your feeling of "exhilaration" does not change the fact that it is harmful - that humans require horses do things that are harmful does not change the fact that it is - we humans seem to be able to accept the harm, but it seems to me that everyone who has the horses best interest at heart would look for ways to diminish the harm done that they accept as much as possible. Acknowledge this - I do. Some humans will not accept the harm done once they know about it some will.

: We probably will never agree on this point, so I will agree to disagree. If you are going to lump all specialized shoeing into a harmful category, you are going to stop almost everything we currently do with a horse. You cannot race them, show them, jump them, or endurance ride them over rocky terrain (except perhaps with Old Mac boots, but is this specialized?). When you remove much of what we do with horses, what would you have us do with them? How would you phase out all of these specialized disciplines? Simply labelling something as abusive and denoting the "abuser" as either ignorant or deliberately cruel is not particularly helpful. It may make you feel better or more important, but it doesn't lend any solution to a perceived problem.

:
: : Did you look at the case study I directed you to? How do you know I have no experience with Saddlebreds? I own a Saddlebred former show horse, his feet are contracted beyond the verticle and he has "navicular". The horse I directed you to look at is a Saddlebred that was a successful show horse in the ring, she is from a show barn in my area where the owner has for over 30 years been a full time show trainer / breeder, until recently when she cut back to 28 head for "retirement", she had 90 horses on the farm. The farm owner has only barefooted the 4 horses, the others are shod and shown. We also have a Hackney pony, now that is a cutie, he was a show pony but ended up a founder and was placed with a rescue - he has done well at his adoptive home living out as a horse, he is no different from any other horse or pony in his basic needs -

: I didn't say you had no experience with a few individuals of the breed, you do not have any experience with correct show shoeing. Not many Saddlebred owners, trainers, or farriers actually do, but I am working on them one at a time and making slow headway. Your rhetoric will get you nowhere and help no horses in this venue.
: I somehow missed the case you referred me to. If you can do so again I will take a look. One case does not equate to all individuals in a breed, but it is good to take a look.

: : So please tell me what is/are the "artificial" differences between the ferals, the domestics, and the show Saddlebreds? Physiologically speaking.

: Ferals are selected by nature for survival. They are generally small, tough, short footed with as heavy sole callus, very wide frog for load bearing, and strong jaws for handling tough forage. Those not making the grade are eliminated.
: Domestics is a rather broad category, but these animals are selectively bred and protected by humans for specific purposes and uses. We will tolerate infertility, metabolic problems, poor hoof mass, all for the sake of a look or purpose.
: Show Saddlebreds have a specific body type (actually two distinctly different body types - one for the Five gaited horse and one for the Three Gaited, Fine Harness horse), a well laid back shoulder (more so than the feral), a flat croup ( no advantage, just done for looks), a high tail set (same, just a look), a long, "hooked" neck, set high(advantageous for the style of the gaits). These are physical traits, not physiological. While the Saddlebred does have the thrifty gene expression in some individuals it is not expressed as well as it is in the mustang. A Saddlebred, when left to his own devices, will tend to grow more heel than feral horses or Thoroughbreds.

:
: : Of course the coronet angle is one part of the healthy hoof and it's evolved mechanism, of course the hoof is the basis for what happens to the horse above - but if you do not have this part correct then the rest of it cannot be optimal. Of course few domestic horse have optimally healthy hooves, that does not mean we should stop learning about what is optimal and why. The horse can get by with less than optimal but it does not mean the horse is not being harmed over time at least to some degree, some to a greater degree. I doubt many horses in your practice will have the correct coronet angle. The shape of the hoof is dictated by terrain and movement beginning with the first day of it's life, that does not mean an Arab living on a soft pasture with little movement has an optimal hoof, it is really that simple.

: You have a good point, but you do not take into account that "optimal" terrain is not only not readily widely available, it is not well defined. I studied the Corolla ponies that inhabit the outer banks of North Carolina. They live in the swamps and sand and have perfect little hooves. Front hooves had 43 to 47 degree angles with the inds generally two degrees higher then this. Since this study was done many years ago we did not consider coronet angles at the time. The sole callus was not evident and the hoof looked as if it had been recently trimmed with the sand constantly abrading the wall and sole. The soles were well cupped and the frogs developed, but not as massively as the Mustangs of the west developing on harder ground. DNA studies indicated that these ponies had remained geneticaslly stable for at least 50 years indicating that these changes had come about from the original groups 50 years ago to today with no external genetic influence. this would indicate that horses can change rather rapidly when selected to do so. Fifty years would probably equate to less than fifteen generations. We didn't take a lot of hoof data as the study was actually being funded for DNA studies plus capture gun use in the equine.

: How are we going to stop the "harm" you refer to? Barefooting all the show horses, race horses, etc. is not reasonable or even possible. Taking the steps on a gradient basis and allowing the industry to find compromises and levels where things improve step by step will bring about the best and most lasting change.

: M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

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: : : : I do not have the patience to argue wether or not the digital cushion, suspensory apparatus, and geneteic varience should be ignored, nullified and good sense villified. I am glad Dr. Meyers and Mr. Rick Burton can do so without upsetting there digestion. : The ansewer to the question" How do we stop the harm?" is simple and hidden not so deeply behind the vail of superiority all of the "naturalists" employ. They want horses to be rid of humans. Turn them out in a feild, trim them so they are only partialy ambulatory and watch them eat grass in their "natural enclosure". Re-inflict the insult to the feet every two weeks to ensure they do not escape! Humans, and all things deriving from humans i.e. the product of logical thinking , must be evi:humans are evil! : These folks utilize every advantage of modern society, communications, medicine, easy food production, transportation, electricity to tell all of us that humans are false and evil... flag burners hiding behind the Constitution, or pro-abortion activisits that are against the death penalty. : These folks cannot exist on there own, as they are unable to think clearly. We hold up the world and create the preserve that causes them to rail so violently. Go soft on them, ignore them and leave them to their own devices. Ayn Rands "Atlas Shrugged" comes to mind. Let the "Naturalists" see how vicious a partener nature is... : Jason : Dr Redden's 30 degree comment was published in The Horse magazine - he has not remarked about why this is correct, perhaps he will explain why. There must be a reason other than that is what it is. : : Ric hasn't been available, but I will certainly address this statement with him the next time we speak. : : : "Specialized" shoeing and the lifestyle that goes with it is harmful, it cannot be anything other than harmful - Your feeling of "exhilaration" does not change the fact that it is harmful - that humans require horses do things that are harmful does not change the fact that it is - we humans seem to be able to accept the harm, but it seems to me that everyone who has the horses best interest at heart would look for ways to diminish the harm done that they accept as much as possible. Acknowledge this - I do. Some humans will not accept the harm done once they know about it some will. : : We probably will never agree on this point, so I will agree to disagree. If you are going to lump all specialized shoeing into a harmful category, you are going to stop almost everything we currently do with a horse. You cannot race them, show them, jump them, or endurance ride them over rocky terrain (except perhaps with Old Mac boots, but is this specialized?). When you remove much of what we do with horses, what would you have us do with them? How would you phase out all of these specialized disciplines? Simply labelling something as abusive and denoting the "abuser" as either ignorant or deliberately cruel is not particularly helpful. It may make you feel better or more important, but it doesn't lend any solution to a perceived problem. : : : : : Did you look at the case study I directed you to? How do you know I have no experience with Saddlebreds? I own a Saddlebred former show horse, his feet are contracted beyond the verticle and he has "navicular". The horse I directed you to look at is a Saddlebred that was a successful show horse in the ring, she is from a show barn in my area where the owner has for over 30 years been a full time show trainer / breeder, until recently when she cut back to 28 head for "retirement", she had 90 horses on the farm. The farm owner has only barefooted the 4 horses, the others are shod and shown. We also have a Hackney pony, now that is a cutie, he was a show pony but ended up a founder and was placed with a rescue - he has done well at his adoptive home living out as a horse, he is no different from any other horse or pony in his basic needs - : : I didn't say you had no experience with a few individuals of the breed, you do not have any experience with correct show shoeing. Not many Saddlebred owners, trainers, or farriers actually do, but I am working on them one at a time and making slow headway. Your rhetoric will get you nowhere and help no horses in this venue. : : I somehow missed the case you referred me to. If you can do so again I will take a look. One case does not equate to all individuals in a breed, but it is good to take a look. : : : So please tell me what is/are the "artificial" differences between the ferals, the domestics, and the show Saddlebreds? Physiologically speaking. : : Ferals are selected by nature for survival. They are generally small, tough, short footed with as heavy sole callus, very wide frog for load bearing, and strong jaws for handling tough forage. Those not making the grade are eliminated. : : Domestics is a rather broad category, but these animals are selectively bred and protected by humans for specific purposes and uses. We will tolerate infertility, metabolic problems, poor hoof mass, all for the sake of a look or purpose. : : Show Saddlebreds have a specific body type (actually two distinctly different body types - one for the Five gaited horse and one for the Three Gaited, Fine Harness horse), a well laid back shoulder (more so than the feral), a flat croup ( no advantage, just done for looks), a high tail set (same, just a look), a long, "hooked" neck, set high(advantageous for the style of the gaits). These are physical traits, not physiological. While the Saddlebred does have the thrifty gene expression in some individuals it is not expressed as well as it is in the mustang. A Saddlebred, when left to his own devices, will tend to grow more heel than feral horses or Thoroughbreds. : : : : : Of course the coronet angle is one part of the healthy hoof and it's evolved mechanism, of course the hoof is the basis for what happens to the horse above - but if you do not have this part correct then the rest of it cannot be optimal. Of course few domestic horse have optimally healthy hooves, that does not mean we should stop learning about what is optimal and why. The horse can get by with less than optimal but it does not mean the horse is not being harmed over time at least to some degree, some to a greater degree. I doubt many horses in your practice will have the correct coronet angle. The shape of the hoof is dictated by terrain and movement beginning with the first day of it's life, that does not mean an Arab living on a soft pasture with little movement has an optimal hoof, it is really that simple. : : You have a good point, but you do not take into account that "optimal" terrain is not only not readily widely available, it is not well defined. I studied the Corolla ponies that inhabit the outer banks of North Carolina. They live in the swamps and sand and have perfect little hooves. Front hooves had 43 to 47 degree angles with the inds generally two degrees higher then this. Since this study was done many years ago we did not consider coronet angles at the time. The sole callus was not evident and the hoof looked as if it had been recently trimmed with the sand constantly abrading the wall and sole. The soles were well cupped and the frogs developed, but not as massively as the Mustangs of the west developing on harder ground. DNA studies indicated that these ponies had remained geneticaslly stable for at least 50 years indicating that these changes had come about from the original groups 50 years ago to today with no external genetic influence. this would indicate that horses can change rather rapidly when selected to do so. Fifty years would probably equate to less than fifteen generations. We didn't take a lot of hoof data as the study was actually being funded for DNA studies plus capture gun use in the equine. : : How are we going to stop the "harm" you refer to? Barefooting all the show horses, race horses, etc. is not reasonable or even possible. Taking the steps on a gradient basis and allowing the industry to find compromises and levels where things improve step by step will bring about the best and most lasting change. : : M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

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