Re: Improving business

Posted by K Bar R on June 13, 2003 at 23:54:48:

In Reply to: Re: Improving business posted by Ray Miller on June 07, 2003 at 09:27:13:

: : : I have sent this out to about two dozen fariers in my area:

: : :
: : : Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

: : : I am sending or giving this to every shoer in the region, be they new, old, part time, full time or just the occasional iron hanger.

: : : What I am about to write you is meant to be in your best interests over the long haul of your shoeing career. I intend it only as a piece of information that I hope will benefit you in your endeavors.
: : : I have been a professional farrier for over 18 years, a horseman for almost forty and want to pass along some of my knowledge and experience I have picked up over that time. I know that nothing is more important to you, save your safety, than financial success. That is my focus of this article to you.
: : : Now I know there is the danger of one or some of you misunderstanding me but I will do my very best to explain myself.

: : : According to the -American Farriers Journal-, Nov.2002 pg. 20 Michael Austin says, "the overall price average is $77.62 with full-timers charging $81.43 and part-timers charging $65.50."

: : : Those are last year?s prices.

: : : I want to encourage you all to closely examine your finances, cost of doing business and see how closely you are aligned to the above statement.
: : : For in this business, those who have gone before you have encountered everything you are as far as trying to provide services, working conditions, unruly horses, chasing bad accounts, billing, truck repairs, vacations, medical bills, supplies, and the all but infinite number of items that seem to line up every month to get the money you sweat for out of your pocket and bank. There is nothing new in the farrier service business that indicates a serious reduction in fees is warranted.
: : : If you are providing a farrier service for a dollar amount that is significantly less than the amount quoted above, you are in real danger of not being able to sustain your practice over the long run and you are endangering the careers of full time professionals. For if you are providing this service at a rate that is well below what most have found it can be, and still maintain a competitive margin, you will find that as you get older, you will not be able to raise your prices fast enough to maintain your standard of living. You will fall behind in your fees and be unable to maintain the clientele you have worked so hard to acquire. On top of that, you will (because of your body slowing down) not be able to maintain the number of horses on your accounts as in your youth.
: : : I urge you to bring your fees (at least) into line with the national average as soon as possible.
: : : There is no pride to be found in providing this service at a rate that is by far the cheapest in town. You are only hurting yourself over the long run. Your customers will complain if you try and raise your prices too quickly after establishing a pattern of being too cheap, so do it now. The best way to avoid this complaint is to try and mimic what the best are doing. Full time professionals must remain competitive and still be able to pay their bills.
: : : We expend large sums of time and money staying current in the latest techniques and products. Everyone benefits from the services of professionals who keep raising the bar in shoeing standards so the horse and owner receive the best possible service.
: : : The horse should not suffer solely from money concerns.
: : : Those shoers who think they are able to provide top quality service at fees that are below cost for a full time professional are not only fooling themselves but also doing a severe disservice to the clients they claim to be helping.
: : : There are more than enough horses in this country for everyone to have plenty to shoe.
: : : Every year dozens of young (and not so young) men and women graduate from shoeing schools thinking they will be on the fast track to monetary success if they only charge less than the next guy. But every year those same dozens find that they cannot sustain that level of commitment and remain financially solvent at the same time. Most are gone within a year.
: : : It has been found that less than 5% of everyone that attends shoeing schools actually begins a full time business. Of those, one in a thousand are still at it in five years. Much of this is due to them trying to do the work at a greatly reduced fee.
: : : Clients who are worth having see this disparity in fees and reason that there must be something wrong with the farrier that has to undercut their fees so severely to gain business.
: : : They look at it much as you might if you were contracting someone to build you a home. If you were to search for several contractors for this project, you would find that most were within a few dollars or cents per square foot to build your home. But if you found one that was significantly lower than the rest, your suspicions would raise immediately as to ?what?s the catch?? or what fundamental ingredient is missing.
: : : As with home buyers, farrier clients soon learn that the cheapest guy cannot provide what the true professionals can and follow through on their promises, no matter how good a liar he is.

: : : Those of you who only shoe horse part time, I ask you to examine your motives. Are you doing this solely for extra cash and the mystique you acquire because you are a ?blacksmith?? Then I charge that you are doing horses and the horse industry harm by refusing to become educated and propagating the myth that farriers are unreliable dolts who have no knowledge of the biomechanics of the horse, it?s method of locomotion, it?s physiology, pathological remedies or professionalism.
: : : Yes, it angers me and a lot of my contemporaries to be lumped into the same group of people who profess themselves to be farriers yet have no intention or responsibility to the animals, people who own them or the industry as a whole enough to become trained in what it is they claim to be. You are irresponsible in your actions to your community.
: : : On top of all of this, you charge so little that it reflects upon the rest of us and erodes the respect the public has of the science of Farriery. I am not saying (and this is where I thought I might be misunderstood) that the fee charged is equal to the quality of work. I have been around long enough to know that there are many farriers out there whose fees are exorbitant and their quality of work is sub par. What I am saying is that by charging so little in your part-time (or full time) status, you erode the professional?s ability to charge a competitive wage.
: : : Now at first glance you might say I am only interested in lining my pockets and keeping my fees as high as I possibly can. I will not deny that I want to be financially successful. But I have never gouged a client simply because they had money and could afford it. Like you, I have taken less on occasion from those whose purse strings were already strained.
: : : But in the long haul, over the long term, over the decades a farrier must provide services for horsemen and women, and provide a living for his family, it is the transient farriers who jump in for a year or so at a time and the low-ballers that inhibit us from getting the money we deserve in today?s age. The uneducated horse public (you have to admit, there are a lot of them out there and growing in numbers every day) sees only the size of the fees at first and uses that measuring stick to make many other decisions pertaining to the care of their horses. They do not understand the difference between a forty-five dollar job and one that has taken years to learn and accomplish. I wish I had made a list of the people who have told me over the years that they got out of horses simply because they could not find and keep a decent farrier.
: : : I lay a lot of the blame for this problem squarely at the feet of the owners of the numerous horseshoeing schools today who lead their students to believe they are ready for business upon graduation.
: : : They are not. They are ready for an apprenticeship, nothing more.
: : : To illustrate my point, allow me to direct you to a school that operates under the moniker of the Brotherhood of Working farriers Association. Upon graduation from this school, they claim their students are ?certified?. But they neglect to tell the unwitting public that these students are only ?certified? as apprentices and that their ?certification? is only recognized by that same school that taught them. No other professional farriers organization accepts their accreditation. So a false sense of accomplishment is thrust upon the public, not to mention the people who graduate from this school promote that very lie in their business practices.
: : : Student farriers need to complete at least two years under an accomplished, full time farrier to even begin to have the kind of work ethic, fundamentals, business savvy, and most of all, experience needed to provide quality service. To turn anyone loose on horses feet without this next step of elementary education should be considered criminal, in my opinion. In fact, in many other countries, a farrier must complete four years of apprenticeship before being allowed to work unsupervised in a professional setting. In England, a farrier must complete four years of intense farrier science college prior to serving the four years of apprenticeship. There is a waiting list many years long to apply to this school. Taking a knife to horses? feet with only a few weeks training without supervision should never be attempted by anyone. In fact, that entire scenario defies the definition of ?professional?. Allowing someone to do it is irresponsible. Paying someone to do it shows a clear lack of understanding in horsemanship.
: : : We must educate the horse-owning public or this trend will continue and full time farriers will go the way of the Dodo bird.
: : : The logic that young or new or part time farriers must provide service at a greatly reduced rate in order to gain business is faulty. I submit that a young or new or part time farrier needs to charge a rate that reflects the industry norm. This is due to several reasons. One, young or part time farriers may not have the skills necessary to be as proficient time wise, but if they are able to provide adequate service, they should be compensated as anyone else. Another would be that with new farriers, their training should be the most up-to-date and owners should be expected to get the very finest in education. Thirdly, as I stated earlier, if a young farrier, or even the part time iron hanger has the education and tutoring needed to provide service, they will be painfully aware of all the costs hidden within the industry that need to be accounted for in their fees. They will not be tempted to severely under cut the fees of established farriers.

: : : Those of you who are charging the public a rate that is ridiculously low need to understand a few things.
: : : First of all I want you to consider this scenario: If you are shoeing horses while employed at another full time job where you have benefits, I would ask you to consider how you might react if your job were to be given to someone your company hired who was untrained or poorly trained at less than half your hourly rate.
: : : Those of you who have never sought out formal training and are charging discounted rates while still calling yourselves ?professionals? tarnish the good name of Farriery. You claim expertise yet have no true knowledge of this science. You have neither education nor apprenticeship to back your word, only your gimmicks.
: : : I also submit that there is a great deal of friendship to be found within this group of people who call themselves farriers, but it is a friendship that goes both ways.
: : : I know firsthand what it is like to be injured and unable to provide my services for recurring clients. Several other farriers stepped up to the plate for me. They went to my clients, shod their horses and had the clients make the checks out to me. Because of them, I am here today, still financially solvent and still in business. They exemplified the term of a true professional. They did it because someone else did it for them at one time or another and they know they may need help in the future. But when I thanked them, they were all of the same opinion, ?we did it to keep you from getting poor?.
: : : On the other hand, I had a couple of young farriers go to some of my clients and offer them service at a rate that was greatly discounted while I was down. They saw an opportunity for themselves and at the expense of anthers? misfortune, they took a step up, or so they think. Little do they know that if they are in the same predicament, they will be hard pressed to find anyone to come to their aid. They will be left to deal with other ?discount? iron hangers. They will also find that if a client is willing to do that, as I have found in the past, that client will change farriers on them as fast as they change underwear. For the clients that dumped me for a much cheaper rate never called to see if I was doing okay or even asked when I might be back. But the clients who were helped by my true friends sent cards of thanks and even some monetary tips in appreciation for their time and effort.
: : : The day was, when farriers were afraid to tell another something that might help him or make his job easier for fear of losing business. Those days are as far behind us as breaking horses by breaking their spirit. Today, we know that we only have ourselves and the ones who truly know the perils of farriery to back us up and make it in this world. That is why I am writing this.
: : : I have been helped many times by men and women who went out of their way to make sure I got back on my feet. Sometimes, I found myself (after dusting myself off) looking back and wondering if there wasn?t something I should have learned that might have helped me from getting into that jam in the first place. Once in a while, I got some sage advice from an old timer (and don?t you go calling me ?old??.) that made a difference in my career.
: : : My responsibility as a farrier, is not only to the horse, the owner, and the industry, but also to the new kids on the block that come up every year trying to make a living at something it?s obvious they love to do or at least want to try.
: : : I have nothing to hide, no big secrets to guard. Heck, there are a lot of guys that came this way before me that were much more than willing to share their minds and talents with me and they were a lot more talented than I will ever be. Why should I be any different? It just makes sense to help each other out.

: : : Having said that, please remember that all of this is meant to be solely suggestion material and nothing more.
: : : But do not complain to another if by your own actions, you find yourself outcast from the farrier community because you are out there cutting the throats of guys that work right along beside you. We see your bills you leave behind for people, telling us you charge ?this? rate when in reality you charge much less. We know if you have shod ?champions? or not and who you have worked for. The farrier community is a small, close-knit world. You do not impress anyone with your lies.
: : : By willingly advertising yourself as the ?cheapest rates?, you telegraph your lack of professionalism and poor skill level to the horse community. Thereby bringing ridicule upon yourself not only from the farriers with whom you claim brotherhood, but horse owners who are knowledgable in the importance of good business practices. You help perpetuate the owners whose only focus is saving money, not the betterment of the horse.
: : : Lastly, if you are one who harbors jealousy in your heart against another farrier for any reason, it is plainly obvious to those of us who do not. We see your business practices and hear your comments to others about so-and-so?s ability and how you are willing to give discounts to get business from them. We know who are the true professionals by their actions and quality of work. If you want to make your life easier and better, seek wise counsel instead of staying at the level you currently are, thinking you have the world cornered and need no further education. You only have a portion of it that is ignorant, backwards in their logic, hurtful to others and mark my words? you are harming the horse industry.
: : : If you think education is expensive, just wait until your ignorance catches up with you.

: : : Sincerely,
: : : Scott Chaney

: :
: : Scott

: : I bet that there are not alot of customers that argue with you when it comes time to decide how and what to do with a particular horse That is probally one of the best lay out answers to that issue I have seen yet you should probally think of a career change (politics) did you get any answers back from the ones you sent out
: : I have been looking at this issue constantly over the last few months ever since Ray and I disscussed it then on here I have found that the area you shoe in really does have alot to do with what you can charge and and what they are willing to pay.An item that has been troubling me the most and maybe you and others can help, in my area the are alot 4-h er's and alot kids that have to pay for alot of the care for their own horses vet checks and farrier and so on and on I want to encourage kid involement in anything but trouble as all of us do. Does anyone on here do anything special for the younger horse folks in this predicament since this string is about cost of shoeing and even you Ray (retired or not) I would like to hear the opinion

: : Frank

: One of the things I use to do for the kids, was have a kids day with the different saddle clubs. You show up at one location with your horse. Be it your horse or a family horse. I would then give then a healthyl discount. This was done on weekends only. And it was not for the people that would show up on had a forty thousand P/U and a seventy thousand dollar trailer or had a fifteen thousand dollar saddle.

: It was for the kids that had to ride their horse there or have gramps load it in his old horse trailer and bring the horse for them. If the family had more then one horse they paid full tilt for all.

: No one ever said horse ownership is or was cheap. I consider owning a horse to darn near the cost of owning an airplane I once had, or the sail boat. You should have to have the money to be able to keep one. I could just see myself going in and asking to have work done for a price reduction, or buy fuel at a reduce cost.

: Horses cost real money to keep.

: Just my thinking.

: Ray Miller

Scott- This is especially directed at you. I appreciate the time you took to write all that you wrote. It means there are farriers that take the time to make the points.

I hope we are able to continue to shoe for the great folks we now do. I feel sorry for the "cheapos" who never know if their customers will be loyal. We had to trim 4 horses today that we are considered "above" doing. Pets for pet people, only 3 out of 4 kicked. But it still feels like a job well done, and we did it at our standard rates. Now these people will not keep a regular schedule, but at least did not have a "hacker", "part-timer", or "undercutter", as this would have only added to these particular horses' problems. I feel these people deserve the best, even though they are basically idiots (with horses).
I like to see the young farriers that want to learn, and we were recently made to feel the same way. We were able to meet and watch (for 6 hours) Hollywood Dun It's farrier. It made us realize what amount of future education we need. I beleive I'd die if we did not shoe horses, there is no greater reward in a job.

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Re: Improving business Scott Chaney 22:21:54 06/14/03 (0)

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: : : : I have sent this out to about two dozen fariers in my area: : : : : : : : : Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, : : : : I am sending or giving this to every shoer in the region, be they new, old, part time, full time or just the occasional iron hanger. : : : : What I am about to write you is meant to be in your best interests over the long haul of your shoeing career. I intend it only as a piece of information that I hope will benefit you in your endeavors. : : : : I have been a professional farrier for over 18 years, a horseman for almost forty and want to pass along some of my knowledge and experience I have picked up over that time. I know that nothing is more important to you, save your safety, than financial success. That is my focus of this article to you. : : : : Now I know there is the danger of one or some of you misunderstanding me but I will do my very best to explain myself. : : : : According to the -American Farriers Journal-, Nov.2002 pg. 20 Michael Austin says, "the overall price average is $77.62 with full-timers charging $81.43 and part-timers charging $65.50." : : : : Those are last year?s prices. : : : : I want to encourage you all to closely examine your finances, cost of doing business and see how closely you are aligned to the above statement. : : : : For in this business, those who have gone before you have encountered everything you are as far as trying to provide services, working conditions, unruly horses, chasing bad accounts, billing, truck repairs, vacations, medical bills, supplies, and the all but infinite number of items that seem to line up every month to get the money you sweat for out of your pocket and bank. There is nothing new in the farrier service business that indicates a serious reduction in fees is warranted. : : : : If you are providing a farrier service for a dollar amount that is significantly less than the amount quoted above, you are in real danger of not being able to sustain your practice over the long run and you are endangering the careers of full time professionals. For if you are providing this service at a rate that is well below what most have found it can be, and still maintain a competitive margin, you will find that as you get older, you will not be able to raise your prices fast enough to maintain your standard of living. You will fall behind in your fees and be unable to maintain the clientele you have worked so hard to acquire. On top of that, you will (because of your body slowing down) not be able to maintain the number of horses on your accounts as in your youth. : : : : I urge you to bring your fees (at least) into line with the national average as soon as possible. : : : : There is no pride to be found in providing this service at a rate that is by far the cheapest in town. You are only hurting yourself over the long run. Your customers will complain if you try and raise your prices too quickly after establishing a pattern of being too cheap, so do it now. The best way to avoid this complaint is to try and mimic what the best are doing. Full time professionals must remain competitive and still be able to pay their bills. : : : : We expend large sums of time and money staying current in the latest techniques and products. Everyone benefits from the services of professionals who keep raising the bar in shoeing standards so the horse and owner receive the best possible service. : : : : The horse should not suffer solely from money concerns. : : : : Those shoers who think they are able to provide top quality service at fees that are below cost for a full time professional are not only fooling themselves but also doing a severe disservice to the clients they claim to be helping. : : : : There are more than enough horses in this country for everyone to have plenty to shoe. : : : : Every year dozens of young (and not so young) men and women graduate from shoeing schools thinking they will be on the fast track to monetary success if they only charge less than the next guy. But every year those same dozens find that they cannot sustain that level of commitment and remain financially solvent at the same time. Most are gone within a year. : : : : It has been found that less than 5% of everyone that attends shoeing schools actually begins a full time business. Of those, one in a thousand are still at it in five years. Much of this is due to them trying to do the work at a greatly reduced fee. : : : : Clients who are worth having see this disparity in fees and reason that there must be something wrong with the farrier that has to undercut their fees so severely to gain business. : : : : They look at it much as you might if you were contracting someone to build you a home. If you were to search for several contractors for this project, you would find that most were within a few dollars or cents per square foot to build your home. But if you found one that was significantly lower than the rest, your suspicions would raise immediately as to ?what?s the catch?? or what fundamental ingredient is missing. : : : : As with home buyers, farrier clients soon learn that the cheapest guy cannot provide what the true professionals can and follow through on their promises, no matter how good a liar he is. : : : : Those of you who only shoe horse part time, I ask you to examine your motives. Are you doing this solely for extra cash and the mystique you acquire because you are a ?blacksmith?? Then I charge that you are doing horses and the horse industry harm by refusing to become educated and propagating the myth that farriers are unreliable dolts who have no knowledge of the biomechanics of the horse, it?s method of locomotion, it?s physiology, pathological remedies or professionalism. : : : : Yes, it angers me and a lot of my contemporaries to be lumped into the same group of people who profess themselves to be farriers yet have no intention or responsibility to the animals, people who own them or the industry as a whole enough to become trained in what it is they claim to be. You are irresponsible in your actions to your community. : : : : On top of all of this, you charge so little that it reflects upon the rest of us and erodes the respect the public has of the science of Farriery. I am not saying (and this is where I thought I might be misunderstood) that the fee charged is equal to the quality of work. I have been around long enough to know that there are many farriers out there whose fees are exorbitant and their quality of work is sub par. What I am saying is that by charging so little in your part-time (or full time) status, you erode the professional?s ability to charge a competitive wage. : : : : Now at first glance you might say I am only interested in lining my pockets and keeping my fees as high as I possibly can. I will not deny that I want to be financially successful. But I have never gouged a client simply because they had money and could afford it. Like you, I have taken less on occasion from those whose purse strings were already strained. : : : : But in the long haul, over the long term, over the decades a farrier must provide services for horsemen and women, and provide a living for his family, it is the transient farriers who jump in for a year or so at a time and the low-ballers that inhibit us from getting the money we deserve in today?s age. The uneducated horse public (you have to admit, there are a lot of them out there and growing in numbers every day) sees only the size of the fees at first and uses that measuring stick to make many other decisions pertaining to the care of their horses. They do not understand the difference between a forty-five dollar job and one that has taken years to learn and accomplish. I wish I had made a list of the people who have told me over the years that they got out of horses simply because they could not find and keep a decent farrier. : : : : I lay a lot of the blame for this problem squarely at the feet of the owners of the numerous horseshoeing schools today who lead their students to believe they are ready for business upon graduation. : : : : They are not. They are ready for an apprenticeship, nothing more. : : : : To illustrate my point, allow me to direct you to a school that operates under the moniker of the Brotherhood of Working farriers Association. Upon graduation from this school, they claim their students are ?certified?. But they neglect to tell the unwitting public that these students are only ?certified? as apprentices and that their ?certification? is only recognized by that same school that taught them. No other professional farriers organization accepts their accreditation. So a false sense of accomplishment is thrust upon the public, not to mention the people who graduate from this school promote that very lie in their business practices. : : : : Student farriers need to complete at least two years under an accomplished, full time farrier to even begin to have the kind of work ethic, fundamentals, business savvy, and most of all, experience needed to provide quality service. To turn anyone loose on horses feet without this next step of elementary education should be considered criminal, in my opinion. In fact, in many other countries, a farrier must complete four years of apprenticeship before being allowed to work unsupervised in a professional setting. In England, a farrier must complete four years of intense farrier science college prior to serving the four years of apprenticeship. There is a waiting list many years long to apply to this school. Taking a knife to horses? feet with only a few weeks training without supervision should never be attempted by anyone. In fact, that entire scenario defies the definition of ?professional?. Allowing someone to do it is irresponsible. Paying someone to do it shows a clear lack of understanding in horsemanship. : : : : We must educate the horse-owning public or this trend will continue and full time farriers will go the way of the Dodo bird. : : : : The logic that young or new or part time farriers must provide service at a greatly reduced rate in order to gain business is faulty. I submit that a young or new or part time farrier needs to charge a rate that reflects the industry norm. This is due to several reasons. One, young or part time farriers may not have the skills necessary to be as proficient time wise, but if they are able to provide adequate service, they should be compensated as anyone else. Another would be that with new farriers, their training should be the most up-to-date and owners should be expected to get the very finest in education. Thirdly, as I stated earlier, if a young farrier, or even the part time iron hanger has the education and tutoring needed to provide service, they will be painfully aware of all the costs hidden within the industry that need to be accounted for in their fees. They will not be tempted to severely under cut the fees of established farriers. : : : : Those of you who are charging the public a rate that is ridiculously low need to understand a few things. : : : : First of all I want you to consider this scenario: If you are shoeing horses while employed at another full time job where you have benefits, I would ask you to consider how you might react if your job were to be given to someone your company hired who was untrained or poorly trained at less than half your hourly rate. : : : : Those of you who have never sought out formal training and are charging discounted rates while still calling yourselves ?professionals? tarnish the good name of Farriery. You claim expertise yet have no true knowledge of this science. You have neither education nor apprenticeship to back your word, only your gimmicks. : : : : I also submit that there is a great deal of friendship to be found within this group of people who call themselves farriers, but it is a friendship that goes both ways. : : : : I know firsthand what it is like to be injured and unable to provide my services for recurring clients. Several other farriers stepped up to the plate for me. They went to my clients, shod their horses and had the clients make the checks out to me. Because of them, I am here today, still financially solvent and still in business. They exemplified the term of a true professional. They did it because someone else did it for them at one time or another and they know they may need help in the future. But when I thanked them, they were all of the same opinion, ?we did it to keep you from getting poor?. : : : : On the other hand, I had a couple of young farriers go to some of my clients and offer them service at a rate that was greatly discounted while I was down. They saw an opportunity for themselves and at the expense of anthers? misfortune, they took a step up, or so they think. Little do they know that if they are in the same predicament, they will be hard pressed to find anyone to come to their aid. They will be left to deal with other ?discount? iron hangers. They will also find that if a client is willing to do that, as I have found in the past, that client will change farriers on them as fast as they change underwear. For the clients that dumped me for a much cheaper rate never called to see if I was doing okay or even asked when I might be back. But the clients who were helped by my true friends sent cards of thanks and even some monetary tips in appreciation for their time and effort. : : : : The day was, when farriers were afraid to tell another something that might help him or make his job easier for fear of losing business. Those days are as far behind us as breaking horses by breaking their spirit. Today, we know that we only have ourselves and the ones who truly know the perils of farriery to back us up and make it in this world. That is why I am writing this. : : : : I have been helped many times by men and women who went out of their way to make sure I got back on my feet. Sometimes, I found myself (after dusting myself off) looking back and wondering if there wasn?t something I should have learned that might have helped me from getting into that jam in the first place. Once in a while, I got some sage advice from an old timer (and don?t you go calling me ?old??.) that made a difference in my career. : : : : My responsibility as a farrier, is not only to the horse, the owner, and the industry, but also to the new kids on the block that come up every year trying to make a living at something it?s obvious they love to do or at least want to try. : : : : I have nothing to hide, no big secrets to guard. Heck, there are a lot of guys that came this way before me that were much more than willing to share their minds and talents with me and they were a lot more talented than I will ever be. Why should I be any different? It just makes sense to help each other out. : : : : Having said that, please remember that all of this is meant to be solely suggestion material and nothing more. : : : : But do not complain to another if by your own actions, you find yourself outcast from the farrier community because you are out there cutting the throats of guys that work right along beside you. We see your bills you leave behind for people, telling us you charge ?this? rate when in reality you charge much less. We know if you have shod ?champions? or not and who you have worked for. The farrier community is a small, close-knit world. You do not impress anyone with your lies. : : : : By willingly advertising yourself as the ?cheapest rates?, you telegraph your lack of professionalism and poor skill level to the horse community. Thereby bringing ridicule upon yourself not only from the farriers with whom you claim brotherhood, but horse owners who are knowledgable in the importance of good business practices. You help perpetuate the owners whose only focus is saving money, not the betterment of the horse. : : : : Lastly, if you are one who harbors jealousy in your heart against another farrier for any reason, it is plainly obvious to those of us who do not. We see your business practices and hear your comments to others about so-and-so?s ability and how you are willing to give discounts to get business from them. We know who are the true professionals by their actions and quality of work. If you want to make your life easier and better, seek wise counsel instead of staying at the level you currently are, thinking you have the world cornered and need no further education. You only have a portion of it that is ignorant, backwards in their logic, hurtful to others and mark my words? you are harming the horse industry. : : : : If you think education is expensive, just wait until your ignorance catches up with you. : : : : Sincerely, : : : : Scott Chaney : : : : : : Scott : : : I bet that there are not alot of customers that argue with you when it comes time to decide how and what to do with a particular horse That is probally one of the best lay out answers to that issue I have seen yet you should probally think of a career change (politics) did you get any answers back from the ones you sent out : : : I have been looking at this issue constantly over the last few months ever since Ray and I disscussed it then on here I have found that the area you shoe in really does have alot to do with what you can charge and and what they are willing to pay.An item that has been troubling me the most and maybe you and others can help, in my area the are alot 4-h er's and alot kids that have to pay for alot of the care for their own horses vet checks and farrier and so on and on I want to encourage kid involement in anything but trouble as all of us do. Does anyone on here do anything special for the younger horse folks in this predicament since this string is about cost of shoeing and even you Ray (retired or not) I would like to hear the opinion : : : Frank : : One of the things I use to do for the kids, was have a kids day with the different saddle clubs. You show up at one location with your horse. Be it your horse or a family horse. I would then give then a healthyl discount. This was done on weekends only. And it was not for the people that would show up on had a forty thousand P/U and a seventy thousand dollar trailer or had a fifteen thousand dollar saddle. : : It was for the kids that had to ride their horse there or have gramps load it in his old horse trailer and bring the horse for them. If the family had more then one horse they paid full tilt for all. : : No one ever said horse ownership is or was cheap. I consider owning a horse to darn near the cost of owning an airplane I once had, or the sail boat. You should have to have the money to be able to keep one. I could just see myself going in and asking to have work done for a price reduction, or buy fuel at a reduce cost. : : Horses cost real money to keep. : : Just my thinking. : : Ray Miller : Scott- This is especially directed at you. I appreciate the time you took to write all that you wrote. It means there are farriers that take the time to make the points. : I hope we are able to continue to shoe for the great folks we now do. I feel sorry for the "cheapos" who never know if their customers will be loyal. We had to trim 4 horses today that we are considered "above" doing. Pets for pet people, only 3 out of 4 kicked. But it still feels like a job well done, and we did it at our standard rates. Now these people will not keep a regular schedule, but at least did not have a "hacker", "part-timer", or "undercutter", as this would have only added to these particular horses' problems. I feel these people deserve the best, even though they are basically idiots (with horses). : I like to see the young farriers that want to learn, and we were recently made to feel the same way. We were able to meet and watch (for 6 hours) Hollywood Dun It's farrier. It made us realize what amount of future education we need. I beleive I'd die if we did not shoe horses, there is no greater reward in a job.

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