Re: Improving business

Posted by Paul Roberson on June 04, 2003 at 11:18:27:

In Reply to: Re: Improving business posted by Frank on June 04, 2003 at 09:27:40:

: : : : : : : : Does improving your business require improving your skill? If you consider that Wal-Mart, Target and Sears stores are far from retailers of elite clothing styles and at best are carpeted warehouses that sell mass produced merchandise that can be found just about anywhere and still turn a huge profit, isn't there a place for the moderately skilled farrier that shoes a few horses a day for $40.00 a head? If we see a host of people that enjoy the "Get it cheap even if its not great" store, shouldn't the farrier industry accept the farriers that provide similar quality of farrier services to horse owners? Do all farriers have to be in the Hall of Fame? Isn't it more important to find a profitable niche and enjoy life than to make your life simply about the next clinic?

: : : : : : : : Paul

: : : : : :
: : : : : : : I agree we should make our lives simple but in order to make it that way one has to afford to make it to the clinic are those words going to put gas in the truck to go to that clinic or pay the food for the table for the day or three that you are gone? it ends up that the guy that does a 40 dollar shoe job does a forty dollar job I find it hard to accept that a guy that is going to be cheap can offer a good service and thats what this business is about I personally do not enjoy getting a frantic call from a new customer cause there regular cheapo can't be bother to come and fix their mistakes and the horse is down I show up on the property sunday afternoon and get the puppy dog eyes cause their baby is sick and make me feel guilty for handing my bill to fix the mistake because he can't be bothered or afford to come back and do it or doesn't have the education Those of us that care for the horse have RESECT for the owner horse and our fellow farrier even though he messes the job up we can't go around and knock the work or under cut him cause he can't get serious about the business the rest of us take pride in what we do and continue our education plan for the future and at the end maybe have a little to play with but if the the guy that wants to go out and shoe for 40 bucks can do so but warn the owner that he or she is getting a second rate job and it will cost alot more to fix it when a serious farrier comes and fixes it just like the merchandise that you would find at Walmart you can not even remotly tell me that a cheapo can ever care or be serious about his job the horse or the owner
: : : : : : : I guess it depends on whether or not you care about the good of the horse. Why bother shoeing if you aren't going to do it right? Does the customer really save any money on a $40 shoeing job if he ends up putting out a couple hundred on radiographs and vet calls? Would you buy the recalled firestone tires, just because they are cheap? If the farrier can't do the job right, he shouldn't be doing it at any price.As a customer, are you really satisfied and did you really get a good deal when your cheap Walmart merchandise falls apart with the first wash?
: : : : : : : You say that we should keep it simple tell me where the simple is? would that be for the iron hanger while he is out fishing on the weekend or the owner having to phone the vet ,farrier (new one)or the horse??

: : : : : : : Frank

: : : : : : :Buying cheap furniture/clothes etc surely can't be compared to a cheap shoeing job. A cheap shoeing job can do real damage to horses feet/legs but wearing a cheap pair of jeans doesn't hurt. Anyone who doesn't strive for constant improvement doesn't deserve to hang out thier shingle. JMO, Andrea

: : : : : Lets look at the owner of a horse that will accept a $40.00 shoeing job. Probably got the horse on a whim. Has little knowledge about horses other than what has been pasted around the barn or local horse show. According to Ray Miller will only be in the industry for five years. More than likely the owner rides once or twice on a set of shoes if that. Can’t or won’t spend more than $40.00 on a shoeing.
: : : : : This is the biggie, there are those that charge several hundred dollars for their work, so by your standard this means that everyone that shoes for half that is a hack? If you get what you pay for is the only standard then all competent farriers should charge the same amount for the same job. I have seen some poor work come from farriers that charge more than a hundred dollars. It would seem to me that price can not be the standard.
: : : : : Isn’t it up to the horse owner to decide if their farrier suits them? If you don’t like coming in behind the farrier that won’t return the Saturday call then don’t. If you don’t like helping out a horse owner and a horse from the previous farrier then don’t. How many of you can honestly say you have walked away from every shoeing job you have done knowing that there was no room for improvement? Have you ever walked away with the feeling that you hope no one sees the job you did on the last unruly horse of a long day?
: : : : : I’m just curious, how many of you that went through a twelve week farrier program were qualified to hang your shingle the day finished? How many of you went out on your own even though you knew you had no clue? How many look back and can honestly say you never did any damage to a horse, intentional or not?

: : : : : Paul

: : : :
: : : : I dont know how anybody that is self-motivated enough to be self-employed,could not be self-motivated enough to self-improve.The question is-what IS improvment to a horseshoer?The price of a job,and the quality of a job should have nothing to do with each other in my opinion.One guy has a $40,000 rig,with $2000 worth of inventory and $2000 worth of tools in the back.The guy is equiped to do anything and can do everything.Is he advanced?Maybe.Another guy works out of an old pickup with a bundle of hand-made tools and 5 or 10 pieces of bar stock in back.He too is equiped to do anything and can do everything.Is he advanced?Maybe.One guy shoes polo ponies in south Florida for $150 a crack.Is he advanced?Another guy shoes horses for cowboys on a 3000 acre cattle ranch in SW New Mexico for $25 a head.Is he advanced?They may all be great,they may all be lousy.To me its the QUALITY of the work that sorts them out.I feel that our individual prices are set to within a ball park figure of whatever 'niche' of clients we choose to work for.At the racetrack here in central Ohio,I get $60 to shoe a horse.Thats pretty much average for us here at the tracks in Ohio.Now if I went to a high dollar Dressage farm trying to charge that little,I would starve to death.They would think I was 6 days out of a 6 week school.If I went to that cattle ranch in New Mexico charging that much,I would starve to death.They would expect to get 2 or 3 horses shod for that much money.
: : : : In my opinion we should all be trying to advance the quality of our work,the quality of our business and the quality of our lives.As the work improves,the clients come.As the clients come the business grows.As the business grows the money rolls in.And when the money rolls in ....
: : : : Its a tough thing to get rolling.Only 5 to 10 out of a hundred last over 5 years in this trade.
: : : : Eric Wilt

: : : Just my .02cents worth. First you should always strive to improve your self and your work. But that improvement comes with a price. The price of clinics, the price of books, the cost of an education. Days off to go to clinics, days off to read and study. Cost to improve means a higher cost to the end user.

: : : Then with improvement comes better tools, so you can do the better job. That also has a price.

: : : An inexspense shoer in most case can not afford to be better for the simple fact of cost.

: : : Also with improvement comes better clients and better wages. It is an investment reguardless of what job you are doing.

: : : Some one told me many years ago. "It only cost a nickle more to go first class." "So charge that extra nickle and be first class".

: : : Just my thinking.

: : : Ray Miller

: : Charge extra so you can stay home and read a book?Does it really cost a lot to sit and read a magazine or sit thru a clinic? C'mon.Can I read a good book today and be worth $10 more per horse tomorrow? I dont think so. For the price of shoeing one horse I can buy some of the most expensive horse books on the market.Theyre cheap.
: : With improvment you can buy better tools?To do a better job?What about with improvment you can MAKE better tools.That doesnt cost alot of money,and its an outstanding way to hone blacksmith skills.Thats improvment.Ive heard people say "a craftsman is only as good as his tools". My dad used to say "its a poor craftsman that blames his tools." Does a good craftsman have valuable tools?I say a good craftsman has valuable HANDS.Lots of nice tools are a great "short-cut" for a talented craftsman-but theyre also a great "crutch" for those that arent.If a guy cant do his job without a $400 grinder-why should his customers take the hit?It doesnt give him an 'upper hand'- it gives him the only hand hes got.
: : An inexpensive horseshoer cant afford to be good?Thats ridiculous.A good horseshoer has to propogate intangible qualities that are handed down,developed and honed on every day,on every horse.Its got nothing to do with how much money you make,how much money you charge,or how much money you've spent.
: : When people skills improve,when blacksmith skills improve,when horseshoeing skills improve-your work becomes more desireable.THATS when your work should be more valuable.But (luckily for some)thats not the way it always works.Its a good thing the average client doesnt know how to really critique a horseshoe job.Alot of inflated shoeing charges would be brought down to Earth.
: : Eric Wilt

: Eric :
: I agree that far to often guys are being paid far to much for what they do. Reading a book well I have a I don't think that they would be anymore valueable but a guy/girl that attends clincs and gets the books and puts that information into his practice and makes him a better farrier yes then he is or more valueable the days of the I need this horse for my work are almost gone but the point I am trying to make is if the market is availble to charge the higher price then it should be done

: Here are key points that I think of when this topic comes up
: what are the shoes worth?
: The propane to hot fit and shape them?
: the gas to get there ?
: the additional materials for the job ?
: and last the amout of time that it takes? what is your time worth ?
: we as professionals should look at these and alot more to detrimine our prices not just at the market. Back in the early days (1890"s ) they charged what a 50 cents to shoe a horse what was the average day pay 10-15 cents so even back then they did charge for their time effort but now the numbers are just higher.If you read the The art of horseshoeing A manual for farriers this issue has been addressed even back then But charging just to be charging is not right but I think that issue is not really the price that everyone gets upset about, but the fly-by-nighters that come in and under charge just to get some Saturday night pocket money and say they are professionals when in reallity they are a wreck waiting to happen and when a real professional (one that has taken the time to learn do the time to get things right)comes to fix the problem then the customer backs at what the price is, how do you deal with that? I know that you are a professional and live in an area where the price is low but still if someone comes in and undercharges by half just to do the work and execpts that it will be fine and you now have to reshoe spend hours with the vet and so on what is the recourse ?

: Frank
I think you have missed the point. There will always be horse owners that are not willing to pay you what you are worth. We have all seen them and had them for clients once. There will always be farriers that are not charging the going rate regardless of their skill. These farriers serve a purpose, even if it is to educate owners that there is a difference in the skill level of farriers. You can’t have good without bad.
Based on our current system of farrier education is anyone surprised that there are so many marginal farriers charging low prices. Beginning farriers have to lie, cheat and steal to get an apprenticeship. Few established farriers take beginners seriously because the attrition rate is so high. Few established farriers would even know where to begin to try to teach an apprentice. Our industry is a product of single farrier operations, opportunistic farrier schools and a self imposed lack of responsibility. Don’t misunderstand me, I am not knocking farriers. This is just how I see the industry.
If you think I am wrong then answer this question. Other than for business licensing, does any state or federal agency currently regulate the farrier industry?

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Re: Improving business Ray Miller 08:38:21 06/05/03 (0)

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: : : : : : : : : Does improving your business require improving your skill? If you consider that Wal-Mart, Target and Sears stores are far from retailers of elite clothing styles and at best are carpeted warehouses that sell mass produced merchandise that can be found just about anywhere and still turn a huge profit, isn't there a place for the moderately skilled farrier that shoes a few horses a day for $40.00 a head? If we see a host of people that enjoy the "Get it cheap even if its not great" store, shouldn't the farrier industry accept the farriers that provide similar quality of farrier services to horse owners? Do all farriers have to be in the Hall of Fame? Isn't it more important to find a profitable niche and enjoy life than to make your life simply about the next clinic? : : : : : : : : : Paul : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : I agree we should make our lives simple but in order to make it that way one has to afford to make it to the clinic are those words going to put gas in the truck to go to that clinic or pay the food for the table for the day or three that you are gone? it ends up that the guy that does a 40 dollar shoe job does a forty dollar job I find it hard to accept that a guy that is going to be cheap can offer a good service and thats what this business is about I personally do not enjoy getting a frantic call from a new customer cause there regular cheapo can't be bother to come and fix their mistakes and the horse is down I show up on the property sunday afternoon and get the puppy dog eyes cause their baby is sick and make me feel guilty for handing my bill to fix the mistake because he can't be bothered or afford to come back and do it or doesn't have the education Those of us that care for the horse have RESECT for the owner horse and our fellow farrier even though he messes the job up we can't go around and knock the work or under cut him cause he can't get serious about the business the rest of us take pride in what we do and continue our education plan for the future and at the end maybe have a little to play with but if the the guy that wants to go out and shoe for 40 bucks can do so but warn the owner that he or she is getting a second rate job and it will cost alot more to fix it when a serious farrier comes and fixes it just like the merchandise that you would find at Walmart you can not even remotly tell me that a cheapo can ever care or be serious about his job the horse or the owner : : : : : : : : I guess it depends on whether or not you care about the good of the horse. Why bother shoeing if you aren't going to do it right? Does the customer really save any money on a $40 shoeing job if he ends up putting out a couple hundred on radiographs and vet calls? Would you buy the recalled firestone tires, just because they are cheap? If the farrier can't do the job right, he shouldn't be doing it at any price.As a customer, are you really satisfied and did you really get a good deal when your cheap Walmart merchandise falls apart with the first wash? : : : : : : : : You say that we should keep it simple tell me where the simple is? would that be for the iron hanger while he is out fishing on the weekend or the owner having to phone the vet ,farrier (new one)or the horse?? : : : : : : : : Frank : : : : : : : :Buying cheap furniture/clothes etc surely can't be compared to a cheap shoeing job. A cheap shoeing job can do real damage to horses feet/legs but wearing a cheap pair of jeans doesn't hurt. Anyone who doesn't strive for constant improvement doesn't deserve to hang out thier shingle. JMO, Andrea : : : : : : Lets look at the owner of a horse that will accept a $40.00 shoeing job. Probably got the horse on a whim. Has little knowledge about horses other than what has been pasted around the barn or local horse show. According to Ray Miller will only be in the industry for five years. More than likely the owner rides once or twice on a set of shoes if that. Can’t or won’t spend more than $40.00 on a shoeing. : : : : : : This is the biggie, there are those that charge several hundred dollars for their work, so by your standard this means that everyone that shoes for half that is a hack? If you get what you pay for is the only standard then all competent farriers should charge the same amount for the same job. I have seen some poor work come from farriers that charge more than a hundred dollars. It would seem to me that price can not be the standard. : : : : : : Isn’t it up to the horse owner to decide if their farrier suits them? If you don’t like coming in behind the farrier that won’t return the Saturday call then don’t. If you don’t like helping out a horse owner and a horse from the previous farrier then don’t. How many of you can honestly say you have walked away from every shoeing job you have done knowing that there was no room for improvement? Have you ever walked away with the feeling that you hope no one sees the job you did on the last unruly horse of a long day? : : : : : : I’m just curious, how many of you that went through a twelve week farrier program were qualified to hang your shingle the day finished? How many of you went out on your own even though you knew you had no clue? How many look back and can honestly say you never did any damage to a horse, intentional or not? : : : : : : Paul : : : : : : : : : : I dont know how anybody that is self-motivated enough to be self-employed,could not be self-motivated enough to self-improve.The question is-what IS improvment to a horseshoer?The price of a job,and the quality of a job should have nothing to do with each other in my opinion.One guy has a $40,000 rig,with $2000 worth of inventory and $2000 worth of tools in the back.The guy is equiped to do anything and can do everything.Is he advanced?Maybe.Another guy works out of an old pickup with a bundle of hand-made tools and 5 or 10 pieces of bar stock in back.He too is equiped to do anything and can do everything.Is he advanced?Maybe.One guy shoes polo ponies in south Florida for $150 a crack.Is he advanced?Another guy shoes horses for cowboys on a 3000 acre cattle ranch in SW New Mexico for $25 a head.Is he advanced?They may all be great,they may all be lousy.To me its the QUALITY of the work that sorts them out.I feel that our individual prices are set to within a ball park figure of whatever 'niche' of clients we choose to work for.At the racetrack here in central Ohio,I get $60 to shoe a horse.Thats pretty much average for us here at the tracks in Ohio.Now if I went to a high dollar Dressage farm trying to charge that little,I would starve to death.They would think I was 6 days out of a 6 week school.If I went to that cattle ranch in New Mexico charging that much,I would starve to death.They would expect to get 2 or 3 horses shod for that much money. : : : : : In my opinion we should all be trying to advance the quality of our work,the quality of our business and the quality of our lives.As the work improves,the clients come.As the clients come the business grows.As the business grows the money rolls in.And when the money rolls in .... : : : : : Its a tough thing to get rolling.Only 5 to 10 out of a hundred last over 5 years in this trade. : : : : : Eric Wilt : : : : Just my .02cents worth. First you should always strive to improve your self and your work. But that improvement comes with a price. The price of clinics, the price of books, the cost of an education. Days off to go to clinics, days off to read and study. Cost to improve means a higher cost to the end user. : : : : Then with improvement comes better tools, so you can do the better job. That also has a price. : : : : An inexspense shoer in most case can not afford to be better for the simple fact of cost. : : : : Also with improvement comes better clients and better wages. It is an investment reguardless of what job you are doing. : : : : Some one told me many years ago. "It only cost a nickle more to go first class." "So charge that extra nickle and be first class". : : : : Just my thinking. : : : : Ray Miller : : : Charge extra so you can stay home and read a book?Does it really cost a lot to sit and read a magazine or sit thru a clinic? C'mon.Can I read a good book today and be worth $10 more per horse tomorrow? I dont think so. For the price of shoeing one horse I can buy some of the most expensive horse books on the market.Theyre cheap. : : : With improvment you can buy better tools?To do a better job?What about with improvment you can MAKE better tools.That doesnt cost alot of money,and its an outstanding way to hone blacksmith skills.Thats improvment.Ive heard people say "a craftsman is only as good as his tools". My dad used to say "its a poor craftsman that blames his tools." Does a good craftsman have valuable tools?I say a good craftsman has valuable HANDS.Lots of nice tools are a great "short-cut" for a talented craftsman-but theyre also a great "crutch" for those that arent.If a guy cant do his job without a $400 grinder-why should his customers take the hit?It doesnt give him an 'upper hand'- it gives him the only hand hes got. : : : An inexpensive horseshoer cant afford to be good?Thats ridiculous.A good horseshoer has to propogate intangible qualities that are handed down,developed and honed on every day,on every horse.Its got nothing to do with how much money you make,how much money you charge,or how much money you've spent. : : : When people skills improve,when blacksmith skills improve,when horseshoeing skills improve-your work becomes more desireable.THATS when your work should be more valuable.But (luckily for some)thats not the way it always works.Its a good thing the average client doesnt know how to really critique a horseshoe job.Alot of inflated shoeing charges would be brought down to Earth. : : : Eric Wilt : : : Eric : : : I agree that far to often guys are being paid far to much for what they do. Reading a book well I have a I don't think that they would be anymore valueable but a guy/girl that attends clincs and gets the books and puts that information into his practice and makes him a better farrier yes then he is or more valueable the days of the I need this horse for my work are almost gone but the point I am trying to make is if the market is availble to charge the higher price then it should be done : : Here are key points that I think of when this topic comes up : : what are the shoes worth? : : The propane to hot fit and shape them? : : the gas to get there ? : : the additional materials for the job ? : : and last the amout of time that it takes? what is your time worth ? : : we as professionals should look at these and alot more to detrimine our prices not just at the market. Back in the early days (1890"s ) they charged what a 50 cents to shoe a horse what was the average day pay 10-15 cents so even back then they did charge for their time effort but now the numbers are just higher.If you read the The art of horseshoeing A manual for farriers this issue has been addressed even back then But charging just to be charging is not right but I think that issue is not really the price that everyone gets upset about, but the fly-by-nighters that come in and under charge just to get some Saturday night pocket money and say they are professionals when in reallity they are a wreck waiting to happen and when a real professional (one that has taken the time to learn do the time to get things right)comes to fix the problem then the customer backs at what the price is, how do you deal with that? I know that you are a professional and live in an area where the price is low but still if someone comes in and undercharges by half just to do the work and execpts that it will be fine and you now have to reshoe spend hours with the vet and so on what is the recourse ? : : Frank : I think you have missed the point. There will always be horse owners that are not willing to pay you what you are worth. We have all seen them and had them for clients once. There will always be farriers that are not charging the going rate regardless of their skill. These farriers serve a purpose, even if it is to educate owners that there is a difference in the skill level of farriers. You can’t have good without bad. : Based on our current system of farrier education is anyone surprised that there are so many marginal farriers charging low prices. Beginning farriers have to lie, cheat and steal to get an apprenticeship. Few established farriers take beginners seriously because the attrition rate is so high. Few established farriers would even know where to begin to try to teach an apprentice. Our industry is a product of single farrier operations, opportunistic farrier schools and a self imposed lack of responsibility. Don’t misunderstand me, I am not knocking farriers. This is just how I see the industry. : If you think I am wrong then answer this question. Other than for business licensing, does any state or federal agency currently regulate the farrier industry?

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