Re: Drugged but still failed

Posted by M. W. Myers, D.V.M. on November 07, 2002 at 19:33:00:

In Reply to: Re: Drugged but still failed posted by Patty Stiller on October 21, 2002 at 22:04:05:

: : : : : : Let me start by saying that I have learned a ton of stuff from the farrier helping farrier BB. You ladies and gents have greatly improved my knowledge about farrier work. That being said, here is my problem. Had a horse to trim today. 1/4 horse mare, 14-18 years of age, 14 hands. Does not seem to be mean. Does not seem to want back feet done either. Took some work to get fronts done, no drugs. Owner had happy juice that vet gave her a few days ago for when farrier came to do feet (red flag?). Owner said that when vet tried looking at back legs, mare kicked out at vet. Tried for 1/2 hr. to calmly get hinds; no dice. Gave medicine. Waited 12 minutes per vets instructions. Mare got glassy look to her eyes. Attempted to get hind leg. Kick was only 1/2 second slower than when undrugged. Went on for another 1/2 hr. Unable to get hinds (continueous kicks). Did I fail? Is that uncommon to not be able to get a horses feet when drugged? Has this happened to anybody else, or did I just drop the ball? Any info, advice, etc. would be welcomed. I cannot recall the name of the drug offhand, and the owner has almost no history on the horse.

: : : : :
: : : : : Some mares have ovary problems or other hormonal issues that can make them treacherous around their hind ends. The first thoing the owners need to do is get the mare examined thoroughly by a reproductive vet.
: : : : : That said ,never ever trust drugs that the owner supplies,unless the vet drew up the drug and dose specifically for that horse with specific instructions on how to use it.
: : : : : Was the drug yellow? If so it was 'acepromazine', which is the absolute worst drug for working on the hind end of horses.
: : : : : They can not only kick violently while on it, but also occasionally absolutely wig out and become treacherous to themselves as well as their handlers. In fact that can occasionally happen on other drugs too. I had a thoroughbred once who went beserk on a mixture of Rompum/torbogesic which the vet had administerd to float teeth.
: : : : : Detomadine, administered I.V. * by the veterinarian * is very effective as so far the safest one I have worked with. .
: : : : : Next time insist the vet be there to sedate the horse and remain watch over the shoeing/trimming to be able to adjust the dose or help if the horse has any adverse reaction. if hte owner balks at cost, refuse to do the horse. If they donp;t pay a good trainer, they will have to have to pay the vet or a good trainer...it's their choice.
: : : : : Patty
: : : : :

: : : : Thanks for responding. The drug was clear, and I remember it began with a D, so maybe it was Detomadine. The owner said the vet drew it up, and to administer IM, which she did. I have the sinking suspicion she may have been used as a broodmare- she came from Arizona, if I recall. Again, thank you for responding.

: : : Detomadine (also called Dormosedan) is usually a very good drug, but any drug given IM will take longer to take effect and not have quite the "punch" as administered IV.
: : : Since the horse was still bad, next time have the vet there to admibnister it IV, and ask him to give it straight, Im yexperience workign a the university where alot ofthe horses neded to besedated for the prescription shoeing,the"coctails" never gave the same results of straight detomadine. There was one horse we did though who took four doses (enough to knock most horses completely out) to get her hind feet finished. She was an amazingly cranky and violent broodmare....from a certain line of california horses (to remain unnamed) who are notorious for that behaviour.
: : : Anyway ask the vet about being there next time to give an IV sedation .(or 'just say no' to anymore work on that horse)
: : : Patty

: : First off, drugs do nothing to inhibit a horse's kicking reflex. I actually think they kick harder when drugged since they feel at a disadvantage. Secondly, they never learn anything when drugged. I have had better success with convincing the owner to pay for a trainer who will teach the horse to stand for shoeing. That means there is an end in sight for the extra cost, since even a trainer fee will not be an ongoing thing. All trainers approach it differently. Some use scotch hobbles(ropes) to get the horse to kick against itself and others try the John Lyons/Pat Parelli approaches of gentling, etc. All those methods have been employed by trainers who I know BEFORE I work on the horse again. Then, what a pleasure it is to work on the horse. From nightMARES to angels in a relatively short time.....with NO DANGER to me, I might add. Make friends with some good trainers in your area....and pass out their cards to problem horse owners. You should NEVER get under a kicking horse....drugged or not. Just my thoughts.
: : Meg

: Meg, most of my experience from shoeing sedated horses comes from being in veterinary clinic situations where the horse HAD to be shod that day, without the luxury of the time required for training, because of lameness situations requiring immediate therapreutic shoeing.
: These folks had (for the most part) hauled to the university for a full day of diagnostic workups, and at the end of the day the horse finally came to the small cramped farrier shop for the required shoeing.
: Those horses are NOT happy with human poking and prodding by that time, believe me.
: These are suituations where re-training is not a viable option.
: Also I have discovered it IS entirely possible to help a horse learn to not fear a situation/ procedure through the correct use of certain drugs. Detomadone in particular has the benefit(in my experience) that the horse can seemingly remember what went on, but without the fear associated with the procedure.
: If used 'straight', without anything else mixed with it, the dangerously fearful horses I have come across in my practice get over the fear and get better every time , with a smaller dose administered each time the shoeing or trimming is performed. Usually it takes two times, then the last time no drug at all. The secret is using the RIGHT drug, in the right dose, administered correctly, along with slow quiet handling from the humans.
: Patty

My experience has been that "cocktails" work better than a single drug. Xylazine and detomidine can have a horse "wake up", kick, and then drop back into sedation. My favored combination for kickers is detomidine, xylazine, and butorphanol. The horse can become very sedated with this so one must be careful. If the horse is really bad and must be trimmed, I have put them under general anesthesia for everyone's safety. After the hooves are done they can go to a trainer for a couple of months before the cycle is repeated and maybe the training can take effect.

M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

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: : : : : : : Let me start by saying that I have learned a ton of stuff from the farrier helping farrier BB. You ladies and gents have greatly improved my knowledge about farrier work. That being said, here is my problem. Had a horse to trim today. 1/4 horse mare, 14-18 years of age, 14 hands. Does not seem to be mean. Does not seem to want back feet done either. Took some work to get fronts done, no drugs. Owner had happy juice that vet gave her a few days ago for when farrier came to do feet (red flag?). Owner said that when vet tried looking at back legs, mare kicked out at vet. Tried for 1/2 hr. to calmly get hinds; no dice. Gave medicine. Waited 12 minutes per vets instructions. Mare got glassy look to her eyes. Attempted to get hind leg. Kick was only 1/2 second slower than when undrugged. Went on for another 1/2 hr. Unable to get hinds (continueous kicks). Did I fail? Is that uncommon to not be able to get a horses feet when drugged? Has this happened to anybody else, or did I just drop the ball? Any info, advice, etc. would be welcomed. I cannot recall the name of the drug offhand, and the owner has almost no history on the horse. : : : : : : : : : : : : Some mares have ovary problems or other hormonal issues that can make them treacherous around their hind ends. The first thoing the owners need to do is get the mare examined thoroughly by a reproductive vet. : : : : : : That said ,never ever trust drugs that the owner supplies,unless the vet drew up the drug and dose specifically for that horse with specific instructions on how to use it. : : : : : : Was the drug yellow? If so it was 'acepromazine', which is the absolute worst drug for working on the hind end of horses. : : : : : : They can not only kick violently while on it, but also occasionally absolutely wig out and become treacherous to themselves as well as their handlers. In fact that can occasionally happen on other drugs too. I had a thoroughbred once who went beserk on a mixture of Rompum/torbogesic which the vet had administerd to float teeth. : : : : : : Detomadine, administered I.V. * by the veterinarian * is very effective as so far the safest one I have worked with. . : : : : : : Next time insist the vet be there to sedate the horse and remain watch over the shoeing/trimming to be able to adjust the dose or help if the horse has any adverse reaction. if hte owner balks at cost, refuse to do the horse. If they donp;t pay a good trainer, they will have to have to pay the vet or a good trainer...it's their choice. : : : : : : Patty : : : : : : : : : : : Thanks for responding. The drug was clear, and I remember it began with a D, so maybe it was Detomadine. The owner said the vet drew it up, and to administer IM, which she did. I have the sinking suspicion she may have been used as a broodmare- she came from Arizona, if I recall. Again, thank you for responding. : : : : Detomadine (also called Dormosedan) is usually a very good drug, but any drug given IM will take longer to take effect and not have quite the "punch" as administered IV. : : : : Since the horse was still bad, next time have the vet there to admibnister it IV, and ask him to give it straight, Im yexperience workign a the university where alot ofthe horses neded to besedated for the prescription shoeing,the"coctails" never gave the same results of straight detomadine. There was one horse we did though who took four doses (enough to knock most horses completely out) to get her hind feet finished. She was an amazingly cranky and violent broodmare....from a certain line of california horses (to remain unnamed) who are notorious for that behaviour. : : : : Anyway ask the vet about being there next time to give an IV sedation .(or 'just say no' to anymore work on that horse) : : : : Patty : : : First off, drugs do nothing to inhibit a horse's kicking reflex. I actually think they kick harder when drugged since they feel at a disadvantage. Secondly, they never learn anything when drugged. I have had better success with convincing the owner to pay for a trainer who will teach the horse to stand for shoeing. That means there is an end in sight for the extra cost, since even a trainer fee will not be an ongoing thing. All trainers approach it differently. Some use scotch hobbles(ropes) to get the horse to kick against itself and others try the John Lyons/Pat Parelli approaches of gentling, etc. All those methods have been employed by trainers who I know BEFORE I work on the horse again. Then, what a pleasure it is to work on the horse. From nightMARES to angels in a relatively short time.....with NO DANGER to me, I might add. Make friends with some good trainers in your area....and pass out their cards to problem horse owners. You should NEVER get under a kicking horse....drugged or not. Just my thoughts. : : : Meg : : Meg, most of my experience from shoeing sedated horses comes from being in veterinary clinic situations where the horse HAD to be shod that day, without the luxury of the time required for training, because of lameness situations requiring immediate therapreutic shoeing. : : These folks had (for the most part) hauled to the university for a full day of diagnostic workups, and at the end of the day the horse finally came to the small cramped farrier shop for the required shoeing. : : Those horses are NOT happy with human poking and prodding by that time, believe me. : : These are suituations where re-training is not a viable option. : : Also I have discovered it IS entirely possible to help a horse learn to not fear a situation/ procedure through the correct use of certain drugs. Detomadone in particular has the benefit(in my experience) that the horse can seemingly remember what went on, but without the fear associated with the procedure. : : If used 'straight', without anything else mixed with it, the dangerously fearful horses I have come across in my practice get over the fear and get better every time , with a smaller dose administered each time the shoeing or trimming is performed. Usually it takes two times, then the last time no drug at all. The secret is using the RIGHT drug, in the right dose, administered correctly, along with slow quiet handling from the humans. : : Patty : My experience has been that "cocktails" work better than a single drug. Xylazine and detomidine can have a horse "wake up", kick, and then drop back into sedation. My favored combination for kickers is detomidine, xylazine, and butorphanol. The horse can become very sedated with this so one must be careful. If the horse is really bad and must be trimmed, I have put them under general anesthesia for everyone's safety. After the hooves are done they can go to a trainer for a couple of months before the cycle is repeated and maybe the training can take effect. : M. W. Myers, D.V.M.

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