Posted by Meg Oliver on October 21, 2002 at 13:30:26:
In Reply to: Re: Drugged but still failed posted by Patty Stiller on October 20, 2002 at 22:45:25:
: : : : Let me start by saying that I have learned a ton of stuff from the farrier helping farrier BB. You ladies and gents have greatly improved my knowledge about farrier work. That being said, here is my problem. Had a horse to trim today. 1/4 horse mare, 14-18 years of age, 14 hands. Does not seem to be mean. Does not seem to want back feet done either. Took some work to get fronts done, no drugs. Owner had happy juice that vet gave her a few days ago for when farrier came to do feet (red flag?). Owner said that when vet tried looking at back legs, mare kicked out at vet. Tried for 1/2 hr. to calmly get hinds; no dice. Gave medicine. Waited 12 minutes per vets instructions. Mare got glassy look to her eyes. Attempted to get hind leg. Kick was only 1/2 second slower than when undrugged. Went on for another 1/2 hr. Unable to get hinds (continueous kicks). Did I fail? Is that uncommon to not be able to get a horses feet when drugged? Has this happened to anybody else, or did I just drop the ball? Any info, advice, etc. would be welcomed. I cannot recall the name of the drug offhand, and the owner has almost no history on the horse.
: : :
: : : Some mares have ovary problems or other hormonal issues that can make them treacherous around their hind ends. The first thoing the owners need to do is get the mare examined thoroughly by a reproductive vet.
: : : That said ,never ever trust drugs that the owner supplies,unless the vet drew up the drug and dose specifically for that horse with specific instructions on how to use it.
: : : Was the drug yellow? If so it was 'acepromazine', which is the absolute worst drug for working on the hind end of horses.
: : : They can not only kick violently while on it, but also occasionally absolutely wig out and become treacherous to themselves as well as their handlers. In fact that can occasionally happen on other drugs too. I had a thoroughbred once who went beserk on a mixture of Rompum/torbogesic which the vet had administerd to float teeth.
: : : Detomadine, administered I.V. * by the veterinarian * is very effective as so far the safest one I have worked with. .
: : : Next time insist the vet be there to sedate the horse and remain watch over the shoeing/trimming to be able to adjust the dose or help if the horse has any adverse reaction. if hte owner balks at cost, refuse to do the horse. If they donp;t pay a good trainer, they will have to have to pay the vet or a good trainer...it's their choice.
: : : Patty
: : :
: : Thanks for responding. The drug was clear, and I remember it began with a D, so maybe it was Detomadine. The owner said the vet drew it up, and to administer IM, which she did. I have the sinking suspicion she may have been used as a broodmare- she came from Arizona, if I recall. Again, thank you for responding.
: Detomadine (also called Dormosedan) is usually a very good drug, but any drug given IM will take longer to take effect and not have quite the "punch" as administered IV.
: Since the horse was still bad, next time have the vet there to admibnister it IV, and ask him to give it straight, Im yexperience workign a the university where alot ofthe horses neded to besedated for the prescription shoeing,the"coctails" never gave the same results of straight detomadine. There was one horse we did though who took four doses (enough to knock most horses completely out) to get her hind feet finished. She was an amazingly cranky and violent broodmare....from a certain line of california horses (to remain unnamed) who are notorious for that behaviour.
: Anyway ask the vet about being there next time to give an IV sedation .(or 'just say no' to anymore work on that horse)
: Patty
First off, drugs do nothing to inhibit a horse's kicking reflex. I actually think they kick harder when drugged since they feel at a disadvantage. Secondly, they never learn anything when drugged. I have had better success with convincing the owner to pay for a trainer who will teach the horse to stand for shoeing. That means there is an end in sight for the extra cost, since even a trainer fee will not be an ongoing thing. All trainers approach it differently. Some use scotch hobbles(ropes) to get the horse to kick against itself and others try the John Lyons/Pat Parelli approaches of gentling, etc. All those methods have been employed by trainers who I know BEFORE I work on the horse again. Then, what a pleasure it is to work on the horse. From nightMARES to angels in a relatively short time.....with NO DANGER to me, I might add. Make friends with some good trainers in your area....and pass out their cards to problem horse owners. You should NEVER get under a kicking horse....drugged or not. Just my thoughts.
Meg