Posted by John Redditt on October 08, 2003 at 22:07:51:
In Reply to: Re: Round pen as opposed to stocks posted by Phil Armitage on October 08, 2003 at 07:27:00:
: : : : : : As a young man, actually an adolescent, I preferred the snap one out or buck me off if you can method. Since resistance free horse training has come about, and the knowledge is attainable, I have learned a better way. In response to a response by Bill Adams, I didn't know that anyone had used that same school of thought for encouraging a horse to stand for the farrier. Will someone please share some of those methods with me?
: : : : : : Thanks in advance,
: : : : : : John
Phil,
I learned about the importance of praise as an adult. Kids and horses, those are that keys that allow me to be so proud of each. I learned the lesson about the importance of praise from my kids. Kids and horses are able to look at their Daddy or owner and get immediate feedback on whatever they are doing. That is a great point.
Thanks, John
: : : : :
: : : : : John,
: : : : : I have learned to apply the principals from Perelli, Lyons, et al, with great sucess in shoeing.
: : : : : So I get this horse that may be aggresive or scared, turns to kick at me, or pulls away and slams the foot down.
: : : : : I set up my rig at the gate of the round pen, while the owner or handler is running the horse, not letting him stop, especialy not where he wants to. Work up a good sweat and get him huffin' and pullin'.
: : : : : Then we tie the lead rope around the neck, to act as a handle, so we can send him running instantly when he misbehaves.
: : : : : Have the handler hold him in the center of the pen, carefully, start by picking up a leg and messing with it but not between your knees. When he pulls away, have the handler make him run till he wants to stop, then go a bit more and make him stop and turn to you (Monty Roberts, etc.), bring him to the center and start again. They learn fast that burning shoes on is better than burning lungs. I bring him over to the gate and shoe him around, wtih him in the pen if we need it.
: : : : : Once they let you do your job they seem to learn and the next shoing goes fine.
: : : : : I have been amazed at how well this works. I did a horse that was so bad ,in his own barn, I had to stop working on him after one front shoe. He just needed one trip around the pen and was fine after that.
: : : : : Another horse had come after me, on the last leg, we tried some dope the owner had, so then he came at me like a twelve hundred pound drunk. A couple days later at another location, we round penned him and had the shoe he wouldn't let us do put on in twenty minuets. The owner bought a round pen for his own place to be ready for the next shoeing. I came to do him at his place in the new pen six weeks later, and he was fine to work on, actualy a good horse to work on, with no running the second time.
: : : : : I swear by these round pens, though I still swear at horses, too.
: : : : : My $0.02,
: : : : : Bill
: : : :
: : : : Bill,
: : : : When I caught onto that a horse would, with a few laps, prefer to be my friend, let me pet his neck, etc., I felt like a genius. Well, you may have learned it the same way I did, the hard way first. As soon as I put it into practice, I could have turned a back flip. Not only does it work, it works great! I still haven't applied it to shoeing. You were being courteous, but this, your latest response, should have started with H E Y S T U P I D,. With my results with this method for other tasks, it's sad to say I didn't apply it to shoeing.
: : : : Thank you, Thank you,
: : : : John
: : : Just to add a little more to this succesfull method. I am retraining a 5 year old show morgan that is sensitive and spooky, started off with round penning and now I am using Clinton Andersons lundging for respect, I was amazed how fast she responded to the training, she still has a ways to go, but her ground manners are now excellent. I really like the cowboy halter and 14' rope lead. I use it on all my horses for everything, there is much more control and is safer.
: : : Phil
: : I think that if the young foal is started out with the right method of proper handling and schooling from the get go, you don't really need a round pen, do you?
: : You need to pass this kind of information on to your owners so they get it right from the get go. It's there duty to have that horse ready to stand for the farrier.
: : Besides who has the time to stand around schooling a horse. I thought a farriers job was to trim and or shoe the horse not train it. That the owners job. I hope you are getting paid for your extra time.
: : Just my thinking.
: : Ray Miller
: : PS. All this round pen stuff is not new in a long way. I have pictures of my old operation in Glaicer National Park ( early 70's) that date from the early 1900's showing the wrangler's area, barn, shoeing shed, catch pen and guess what there a round pen attached to the catch pen.
: : Also I was taught that a fancy flat leather halter was used to show your horse or mule for sale. The rest of the time we used rope halters on all our horses, this was back in the 50's and 60's. I also continued to use rope halters and still do today. I like the bright pink one's, no honest theif I know will steal one. Least ways if they do, you can spot it right quick.
: : Ray Miller
: : As far as snaping one out, most of the hands and wranglers I grew up with and worked with would not prefer to snap one out or rough handle one. At times we had to because they were range bronc's may not have seen a man for years. Those were the one's that tested the stuff you were made of. But that the hard way. Knew that years ago. That was left for the Rodeo Arena for show.
:
: I understand what your saying Ray, the round pen and ability of using a rope are just tools to gain respect and have safe control. Alot of knowledge and experience that the Natural Horsemenship guys share today has been around for a long time, but like everything it takes time to get it out to the public and for people to learn how to properly apply it. There has been many times where I have nipped a problem right at the bud becuase I know how to read the horse and know when there thinging of doing something, timeing is everything and when a horse does the right thing, the most important part is praise. It took me a long time to learn when the horse was pulling attitude or being disrespectful and when they were being good. Descipline and praise have to be balanced properly you cannot do one without the other. I do not think a farrier has a choice in the matter of training, if you think about it everytime you interact with a horse trained or not you are training.
: Phil