Posted by Ron West on September 10, 2003 at 17:29:32:
In Reply to: Re: Hock issues in dressage horses. posted by malinda on September 10, 2003 at 16:02:02:
: : : : : : : : : : : Just started doing a barn full of dressage horses. Several of them have hock issues and one has just been diagnosed with Bone Spavin.
: : : : : : : : : : : Upon rereading James Rooneys book I was reminded that he feels all horses that work in a sickle hocked fashion (like the collected dressage positions force them into) will ulimately develop various hock arthroses. He prescribes moderate work until the joint fuses which is what the Vet involved in the fellow with bone spavin has presecribed as well. The vet has given no opinon on shoeing while we wait for fusion. I could use a shock absorbing wedge pad to minimize motion of the affected area and reduce concussion but while we wait for fusion to occur it would seem that irritation to the joint is to be encouraged not minimized. Thoughts on this horse would be most welcome.
: : : : : : : : : : : The next issue is prevention in the horses who are much less acute do not have a diagnosis of spavin and upon x-ray would most likely not have any bony changes showing yet. One could almost make a case for a shock absorbing wedge pad for all dressage horses LOL. I wonder what those who prepare dressage horses do to prevent this type of injury and look forward to your responses.
: : : : : : : : : : : Fred
: : : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : : Hey Fred,
: : : : : : : : : : I've had good luck with these guys by dropping them into a plain stamped shoe behind.
: : : : : : : : : : ~~Danvers
: : : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : : Danvers,
: : : : : : : : : Could you elaberate as to toe shape, breakover point, and lengh of heels. Apperciate your posts on the other threads and your work with the AFA.
: : : : : : : : : Thank you,
: : : : : : : : : Bill
: : : : : : : :
: : : : : : : : Bill,
: : : : : : : : Toe shape… hmmm… I don’t really try to go to the extremes of pointing them up or squaring them off. Basically, I just try to see a foot in it, which on these horses is maybe a little blunt--somewhere between what you’d find on a Werkman hind pattern and a Crothers concave hind pattern.
: : : : : : : : Breakover point… I don’t want to open up the worm can with something that’s proven controversial on these boards before, but I haven’t changed my mind on it, so… I think breakover is more a function of the front limb than the hind. The carpus works as a hinge and the hock works as a piston. Yes, the hinds have to break over, but it’s a whole different kind of function and mechanics, and it just ain’t “breakover” like we talk about with fronts (and that people generalize to all four limbs).
: : : : : : : : Length of heels… My general rule of thumb is to split the distance between the buttress and the bulb. All kinds of things may get factored in that will cause me to violate that “rule” one way or another, but it’s my starting point.
: : : : : : : : And, hey, thanks for the kind words!
: : : : : : : : ~~Danvers
: : : : : : : : : Hi Danvers, Just wanted to thank you for your elaboration on those three points. Very concise and to the point. I really liked your description of the hock action, got a good visual on that one and totally agree. And like Bill said Thanks for your posts I read all of yours and have gotten a lot of insight from them. : Roxann
: : : : : : I'm with Danvers on this one not to square a toe just blunt a little squarer than a kerkheart or werkman hind shape, definitely no heels and avoid any type of calks if possible, I've had mixed responses to pads some people might suggest rolling the toes I probably wouldn't but experiment and also remember that this type of affliction has it's acute phases followed by intermittant periods of recovery so be prepared to adjust as you go
: : : : : : Ron West
: : : : : : Westcliffe Colorado
: : : : : :
: : : : : Since the hind limbs work great at pushing off the horse not supporting its weight I notice some Dressage horses who seem to have reverse rotation where the frog prolapses past the heels, this tells me there is to much weight in the in those bones and they are not supported. I have had good luck with a plain stamped shoe little traction and eguipack for support. In some I have rounded the entire ground side of the shoe to help eliminate torque on the limb if the hind feet need to twist or slide on the ground, the less traction the better. I have tried wedges, I think the most help they offer is caudle support and I can get this from the equipack. I still scratch my head on how much a dressage rider wants them to work off the hind and I do notice alot of hock trouble, vets are making out with injections. However if a horse works off the hind they do help there front limbs. I also do not set the shoe back to much on the hinds, I also find that the sqaure toe in the Kirkheart hinds is enough and seems to keep the feet looking normal.
: : : : : Phil
: : : : With the possible exception of western pleasure horses all performance horses must work off the hind end ,the accelerator, brakes and steering are all located in the hind end. the rider achieves liteness of forehand by getting the horse to use his hinds to maneuver, accelerate and stop. Strangely enough, all horses barring injury, do this naturally(just watch them go in a turnout) But when you put a rider on their backs the forend becomes Heavy. hopefully the trainer and rider get the forend lite again.
: : : : Much of the hock trouble we're seeing these days is built around the breeders (especially in this country) prejudice against cow hocks.
: : : : Ron West Westcliffe Colorado
: : : Makes alot of sense Ron, thank you for your explanation. What do you mean about predjudice against Cow hocks?
: : : Phil
: : Breeders and buyers of Jumpiers, dressage, and western stock will very often pass on a cow hocked horse , they say usually that they think cow hocks are weaker, however the opposite is true. there may be some connection with the fact that so many arabs have cow hocks? If you spent some time at the local vet clinic a very high percentage of your hock problem horses are base narrow or what the draft horse people call bandy legged. Btw Draft horse people consider cow hocks desirable, for work and show.
: : Ron West
: : Westcliffe Colorado
: Regarding cow hocks:
: I've just picked up a book called The Principles of Conformation Analysis by Deb Bennett (vol 1). What she describes about hind leg conformation is what I've been trying to tell people for years.
: The "textbook straight" hind legs are weak and the legs will bow to the outside as weight passes over the hocks.
: The desirable hind legs will have width between the stifles (as seen from the rear), strong hock joints, parallel cannon bones, and toes pointing out at the same angle as the stifle, never straight foward.
: The true cow hocked horse lacks width between the stifles, has nonparallel cannons, and the toes point out more than the stifles.
I'm confused. the stifles are in the front of the hind leg. I'm not sure you can see them from the rear of a horse. The musculature would interfere with your view.
Ron West Westcliffe Colorado