Re: Use of Ace???

Posted by Jim R. on July 27, 2003 at 12:14:25:

In Reply to: Re: Use of Ace??? posted by Ronald Aalders on July 19, 2003 at 02:47:49:

: : : : : : : I'm new to this board, as well as new to being a farrier(ess)! so please bear with me. I recently started working primarily on call in an equine clinic in Southern California -- primarily rather flighty performance horses with special needs. Most of the time, they're pretty well behaved (as are the owners) but there are several times I have feared for my life....I guess that't pretty typical when you're bent over in front a stallion fresh off the track :) The vets I work with have supplied me with acepromezine AND I have taken the appropriate classes to give IV, IM and SubQ injections -- they see no reason to attempt to force a horse into compliance and truthfully I CAN'T force them. I'm fairly small and they're fairly large. So we sedate them a little and everybody is happy. In addition, I ONLY use the ace on animals pre-approved by the vets and I ALWAYS make one last call prior to the injection to confirm dosage, etc.
: : : : : : : Here's my question -- a few weeks ago I was at a client's stable. They are regular clients at the clinic and have decided to use me more regularly. With one horse I suggested the use of ace, and was promptly fired. They claimed no "respectable, responsible" farrier would dope a horse and threated to call the humane authorities, my employers, etc.... total smear campain which I can't really fathom as necessary.
: : : : : : : AM I WRONG???? If so, I will glady hand over my syringe!
: : : : : : : Feel free to lash into me, I need the input desperately!
: : : : : : : Thanks
: : : : : : : Lynn Dague
: : : : : : I do not think you are wrong, but as you can see, some people have very strong opinions when it comes to something as controversal as sedating their poorly behaving horse. It is the owner/trainer responsibility to make sure that horse is capable of being worked on in the first place. I would back away from a client that wants you to work on a dangerous animal without the vet present.
: : : : : : However, I am surprized that the vet would actually suggest using "ace" to relax a horse for farrier work. Horses kicking response is very much heightened on "ace". Dormosedan is a much safer bet. The only drawback is that it does not last very long and is VERY expensive. Ace is cheap. I personally would not work on a horse that has been given only ace.

: : : : :
: : : : : I think I misspoke! In this particular case, there was no kicking or otherwise typically dangerous behavior of that sort. He was flighty and distracted, pulling his feet away at the slightest provocation -- not necessarily kicking. (and yes, my insurance is wonderful and I CAN administer the medication legally. It's a wonderful thing that comes from being technically employed by great vets who allow me to use it by proxy.) When a gigantic thing such as this is dancing around like madonna in tokyo, it can make you nervous. And I agree that it's their horse, they can do what they want. Same goes if they WANT drugs and I might object. It's their animal to make the decision about! I can either make a living being a farrier or not.... but ultimately it's their horse, and frankly if they want to sedated or crippled that's their business not mine. I may not like it, but their's nothing I can do about it. Vets have far more freedom to pass judgement and far more reason to do so (Hipp. Oath). So, while nothing is going to stop a dangerous horse from being dangerous, I personally think ace is a good way to take the edge off a nervous animal and make the experience a pleasant one. I would rather have one sedated slightly then twitched and chained and whacked... or worse....also it have been my experience that if the shoeing is pleasant once, it's easier then next time and even easier the time after that and eventually you can quit with the drugs altogether while most horses are never the same after a good beating.... just my thoughts...

: : : : Being a new farrier, means that for one thing you have to hone up some of your horsemanship skills. New farriers seem to get the dinks because established farriers have learned to pass on the bad ones. One question? Are you shoeing these horses at the vet clinic? If so, the horses can be a tad bit nervous because of fear of the vet and the surroundings. Call it paying your dues but we have all been there and learn to say "NO" to these type of horses. Your career and your body will last a lot longer when you learn that! Good Luck! Gary

: : : I personally will not get under a horse which has been administerd Ace, because of that particular drug's propensity to create unexprected violent reactions in the horse. Kicking, generally "wigging out" and even suddenly flipping over backward have been experiences of mine ver the years. The vets are wrong in giving you that drug for sedation for shoeing.
: : : There are other, far better drugs to use.
: : : Also I am not an attorney but it seems to me that you would have to be actually employed by the vet clinic (ie the shoeing billed by and payed to the vet clinic, not to you directly) to be a legally able to administer drugs to a client's horse by proxy.
: : : If that is not the case, the client had every right to fire you for whatever reason ,even if ethically they should have had a better behaved horse. You also had the right to just refuse to do the horse.
: : : If indeed you are payed by the vet clinic, sent out to the shoeing on orders of the vet and payed by the vet, then the veterinarians involved should call the irate client defend your position.
: : : In the meantime stop setting yourself up for potential litigation by administering drugs to outside horses, legal or not. The risk is not worth it. If you carry sedation with you, it gets tooooo tempting to use sedation instead of working out the problem with the horse and handler, or walking away like you really should. Sedation is owner's and the vets problem, not yours. I have found over the years that if you have good handlers there ARE ways to get most of them done pretty safely.I lived at the track,my ex husband was a plater and I have shod plenty of race horses on and just offthe track. Those horse in for the most part know how to behave for shoeing IF they are handled right. You are certainly not going to be able to just stick one of those in the cross ties and go to work,thye donlt know how to stand tied. It takes a GOOD hand on the other end of the lead shank,and sometimes a lip chain,to help.
: : : QUIT sedating horses yourself while you are ahead.
: : : Patty

: : Lyn,

: : I heard a good suggestion from a clinician a few weeks ago you might try in the future when the owner refuses to sedate this type of horse. Ask the owner to hold the leg while you trim it (European style) that way you can concentrate on your job. Personally I won't sedate a horse as in my state it's against the law without the initials DVM. -Diddo- on what Patty said about the ACE and horse handlers. There are certain breeds out there that are obnoxious to start with and if you can't find someone to hold them that knows what they're doing and I've found I'm better off to stear clear of them as you will get injured eventually. Think of yourself first before your clients as they will foreget about you soon as you're laid up.

: : Jim R.

: Because of the sheer arrogance shown by a big contributor to these boards towards a specific type of horses and horse trainers in particular, I kind of decided to stop posting on these boards. Just stick to reading and maybe pick up a thing or two.

: However since for several reasons this subject lies close here are my $0.02.

: Here in Europe a shoer is not allowed to put a syringe in a horse, period. Also drugs need to be tested on horses when a vet administers them. Check your Ace bottle guys, its likely to say for cats and pigs........ Use of a drug like that on horses is simply not allowed, unless a vet fills out a form why he used such a drug on a horse.

: So do I use Ace on a horse? OF COURSE I DO! Not only is it cheap, it's also a pretty safe drug on horses, unlike Domocedan.

: By the way in Europe there is a product that's called Sedalin. It contains acepromazine too but is designed to be administered orally. But try to administer an oral drug to a young or nervous horse. You'll get the drug in allright but because of their state of mind the speed of their digestion system is very low. It takes hours for the drug to have effect.

: Personally I use Ace a lot on young horses and nervous horses, the ones that just won't stand still.

: I can not stress enough that Ace is not a drug to be used on a kicking horse! It will not do you any good. I don't know if it makes things worse, but is does not help any either.

: I agree that Domocedan is a better drug for those situations. However in particular cases Domocedan is known to cause heart failure and you need to administer Adrenalyn. Any one of you carries that around?

: So coming to my point here, on a well educated horse that is nervous when shod, some are, Ace is great. Just 1 ml I.V. does the job. On young hobble trained horses, Ace is great.

: On horse that are dangerous, Ace does not help. Maybe other drugs do help, but we have to ask ourselves is it worth it? I can not see ANY reason to work on a dangerous horse. Nobody will pay you enough to cover the risk! If you get kicked and can not work for a week, who is going to pay for that? And who pays for the customers that end up with another shoer because you're in hospital getting a shiny new plastic knee cap?

: If you are working on a horse that you are not comfortable with, and its the kind of behaviour that will not be cured with a little Ace, tell the customer about that problem. Let him find a trainer that can educate the horse. Such horses are not your problem guys! Do not make it your problem!

: O and Jim, as far as I know shoeing with a helper holding the foot is only perfomed by some in Germany. Europe is a bit bigger than that......

: Ronald Aalders

Ronald,
Come on Ronald what was that little snipe at the end of your comments? What about France and Belgium? The statement about the helper wasn't meant to be aimed at you Ronald, or at anyone else. It wasn't to suggest that everyone who shoes in Europe uses this method. This was aimed at clients who insist on having you trim their horse or get shoes on their horse no matter what injuries you may sustain. It was tongue and cheek and wasn't meant to be taken so literally.
It's too bad you let one person on this board influence you from not posting anymore. I wish you would change your mind on this one Ronald. I know for a fact I have learned a few things from you. I may not agree with everything you say but I have'nt meant anyone that I have. The way to keep someone from dominating these boards is to put your own input in right or wrong. I would really like to see your input as well Ronald this one person doesn't have all the answers and probably works on very -few- of these type of horses. Besides I like your perpective of being a working farrier in Europe that works on reiners. Hang in there and don't throw the towel in so fast. Your thoughts and input are just as important!!!!!!

Jim R.

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Re: Use of Ace??? Ronald Aalders 05:38:57 08/10/03 (0)

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: : : : : : : : I'm new to this board, as well as new to being a farrier(ess)! so please bear with me. I recently started working primarily on call in an equine clinic in Southern California -- primarily rather flighty performance horses with special needs. Most of the time, they're pretty well behaved (as are the owners) but there are several times I have feared for my life....I guess that't pretty typical when you're bent over in front a stallion fresh off the track :) The vets I work with have supplied me with acepromezine AND I have taken the appropriate classes to give IV, IM and SubQ injections -- they see no reason to attempt to force a horse into compliance and truthfully I CAN'T force them. I'm fairly small and they're fairly large. So we sedate them a little and everybody is happy. In addition, I ONLY use the ace on animals pre-approved by the vets and I ALWAYS make one last call prior to the injection to confirm dosage, etc. : : : : : : : : Here's my question -- a few weeks ago I was at a client's stable. They are regular clients at the clinic and have decided to use me more regularly. With one horse I suggested the use of ace, and was promptly fired. They claimed no "respectable, responsible" farrier would dope a horse and threated to call the humane authorities, my employers, etc.... total smear campain which I can't really fathom as necessary. : : : : : : : : AM I WRONG???? If so, I will glady hand over my syringe! : : : : : : : : Feel free to lash into me, I need the input desperately! : : : : : : : : Thanks : : : : : : : : Lynn Dague : : : : : : : I do not think you are wrong, but as you can see, some people have very strong opinions when it comes to something as controversal as sedating their poorly behaving horse. It is the owner/trainer responsibility to make sure that horse is capable of being worked on in the first place. I would back away from a client that wants you to work on a dangerous animal without the vet present. : : : : : : : However, I am surprized that the vet would actually suggest using "ace" to relax a horse for farrier work. Horses kicking response is very much heightened on "ace". Dormosedan is a much safer bet. The only drawback is that it does not last very long and is VERY expensive. Ace is cheap. I personally would not work on a horse that has been given only ace. : : : : : : : : : : : : I think I misspoke! In this particular case, there was no kicking or otherwise typically dangerous behavior of that sort. He was flighty and distracted, pulling his feet away at the slightest provocation -- not necessarily kicking. (and yes, my insurance is wonderful and I CAN administer the medication legally. It's a wonderful thing that comes from being technically employed by great vets who allow me to use it by proxy.) When a gigantic thing such as this is dancing around like madonna in tokyo, it can make you nervous. And I agree that it's their horse, they can do what they want. Same goes if they WANT drugs and I might object. It's their animal to make the decision about! I can either make a living being a farrier or not.... but ultimately it's their horse, and frankly if they want to sedated or crippled that's their business not mine. I may not like it, but their's nothing I can do about it. Vets have far more freedom to pass judgement and far more reason to do so (Hipp. Oath). So, while nothing is going to stop a dangerous horse from being dangerous, I personally think ace is a good way to take the edge off a nervous animal and make the experience a pleasant one. I would rather have one sedated slightly then twitched and chained and whacked... or worse....also it have been my experience that if the shoeing is pleasant once, it's easier then next time and even easier the time after that and eventually you can quit with the drugs altogether while most horses are never the same after a good beating.... just my thoughts... : : : : : Being a new farrier, means that for one thing you have to hone up some of your horsemanship skills. New farriers seem to get the dinks because established farriers have learned to pass on the bad ones. One question? Are you shoeing these horses at the vet clinic? If so, the horses can be a tad bit nervous because of fear of the vet and the surroundings. Call it paying your dues but we have all been there and learn to say "NO" to these type of horses. Your career and your body will last a lot longer when you learn that! Good Luck! Gary : : : : I personally will not get under a horse which has been administerd Ace, because of that particular drug's propensity to create unexprected violent reactions in the horse. Kicking, generally "wigging out" and even suddenly flipping over backward have been experiences of mine ver the years. The vets are wrong in giving you that drug for sedation for shoeing. : : : : There are other, far better drugs to use. : : : : Also I am not an attorney but it seems to me that you would have to be actually employed by the vet clinic (ie the shoeing billed by and payed to the vet clinic, not to you directly) to be a legally able to administer drugs to a client's horse by proxy. : : : : If that is not the case, the client had every right to fire you for whatever reason ,even if ethically they should have had a better behaved horse. You also had the right to just refuse to do the horse. : : : : If indeed you are payed by the vet clinic, sent out to the shoeing on orders of the vet and payed by the vet, then the veterinarians involved should call the irate client defend your position. : : : : In the meantime stop setting yourself up for potential litigation by administering drugs to outside horses, legal or not. The risk is not worth it. If you carry sedation with you, it gets tooooo tempting to use sedation instead of working out the problem with the horse and handler, or walking away like you really should. Sedation is owner's and the vets problem, not yours. I have found over the years that if you have good handlers there ARE ways to get most of them done pretty safely.I lived at the track,my ex husband was a plater and I have shod plenty of race horses on and just offthe track. Those horse in for the most part know how to behave for shoeing IF they are handled right. You are certainly not going to be able to just stick one of those in the cross ties and go to work,thye donlt know how to stand tied. It takes a GOOD hand on the other end of the lead shank,and sometimes a lip chain,to help. : : : : QUIT sedating horses yourself while you are ahead. : : : : Patty : : : Lyn, : : : I heard a good suggestion from a clinician a few weeks ago you might try in the future when the owner refuses to sedate this type of horse. Ask the owner to hold the leg while you trim it (European style) that way you can concentrate on your job. Personally I won't sedate a horse as in my state it's against the law without the initials DVM. -Diddo- on what Patty said about the ACE and horse handlers. There are certain breeds out there that are obnoxious to start with and if you can't find someone to hold them that knows what they're doing and I've found I'm better off to stear clear of them as you will get injured eventually. Think of yourself first before your clients as they will foreget about you soon as you're laid up. : : : Jim R. : : Because of the sheer arrogance shown by a big contributor to these boards towards a specific type of horses and horse trainers in particular, I kind of decided to stop posting on these boards. Just stick to reading and maybe pick up a thing or two. : : However since for several reasons this subject lies close here are my $0.02. : : Here in Europe a shoer is not allowed to put a syringe in a horse, period. Also drugs need to be tested on horses when a vet administers them. Check your Ace bottle guys, its likely to say for cats and pigs........ Use of a drug like that on horses is simply not allowed, unless a vet fills out a form why he used such a drug on a horse. : : So do I use Ace on a horse? OF COURSE I DO! Not only is it cheap, it's also a pretty safe drug on horses, unlike Domocedan. : : By the way in Europe there is a product that's called Sedalin. It contains acepromazine too but is designed to be administered orally. But try to administer an oral drug to a young or nervous horse. You'll get the drug in allright but because of their state of mind the speed of their digestion system is very low. It takes hours for the drug to have effect. : : Personally I use Ace a lot on young horses and nervous horses, the ones that just won't stand still. : : I can not stress enough that Ace is not a drug to be used on a kicking horse! It will not do you any good. I don't know if it makes things worse, but is does not help any either. : : I agree that Domocedan is a better drug for those situations. However in particular cases Domocedan is known to cause heart failure and you need to administer Adrenalyn. Any one of you carries that around? : : So coming to my point here, on a well educated horse that is nervous when shod, some are, Ace is great. Just 1 ml I.V. does the job. On young hobble trained horses, Ace is great. : : On horse that are dangerous, Ace does not help. Maybe other drugs do help, but we have to ask ourselves is it worth it? I can not see ANY reason to work on a dangerous horse. Nobody will pay you enough to cover the risk! If you get kicked and can not work for a week, who is going to pay for that? And who pays for the customers that end up with another shoer because you're in hospital getting a shiny new plastic knee cap? : : If you are working on a horse that you are not comfortable with, and its the kind of behaviour that will not be cured with a little Ace, tell the customer about that problem. Let him find a trainer that can educate the horse. Such horses are not your problem guys! Do not make it your problem! : : O and Jim, as far as I know shoeing with a helper holding the foot is only perfomed by some in Germany. Europe is a bit bigger than that...... : : Ronald Aalders : Ronald, : Come on Ronald what was that little snipe at the end of your comments? What about France and Belgium? The statement about the helper wasn't meant to be aimed at you Ronald, or at anyone else. It wasn't to suggest that everyone who shoes in Europe uses this method. This was aimed at clients who insist on having you trim their horse or get shoes on their horse no matter what injuries you may sustain. It was tongue and cheek and wasn't meant to be taken so literally. : It's too bad you let one person on this board influence you from not posting anymore. I wish you would change your mind on this one Ronald. I know for a fact I have learned a few things from you. I may not agree with everything you say but I have'nt meant anyone that I have. The way to keep someone from dominating these boards is to put your own input in right or wrong. I would really like to see your input as well Ronald this one person doesn't have all the answers and probably works on very -few- of these type of horses. Besides I like your perpective of being a working farrier in Europe that works on reiners. Hang in there and don't throw the towel in so fast. Your thoughts and input are just as important!!!!!! : Jim R.

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